D&D 5E Little rules changes that still trip you up

[UngeheuerLich]

If a seemingly harmless person is always assumed to be a threat, be sure to always bring one with you. So you are never surprised.
It does not matter which person is noted. If you notice ANY threat, there is no surprise at all.

Or is it schroedinger's surprise: if the seemingly harmless person draws a dagger then you are not surpised anymore, even if you went before him?

So better use the deception vs. insight variant or stealth vs. perception to draw a hidden dagger. Otherwise you run into logical problems.
Maybe if you tell the DM you are suspicious of the person you are speaking to you may have advantage if there may be a good reason or you can make a perception check to notice hidden weapons even before they are drawn.
Other

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Sometimes it's interesting just to jump into a thread 18 pages in to see what path the discussion has taken.

 

[Lanliss]

Sometimes it's interesting just to jump into a thread 18 pages in to see what path the discussion has taken.

Agreed. And what a surprise, someone is arguing about surprise and initiative. Must be Monday.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

All discussions with this many pages either end with a discussion about surprise rules or a discussion about hiding rules.

But in this thread it's actually on-topic, I'd say! Except maybe for the "little" part.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Sometimes it's interesting just to jump into a thread 18 pages in to see what path the discussion has taken.

Any thread in the 5E forum longer than 15 pages is inevitably about surprise and/or stealth.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Funny isn't it. In actual play there are seldom problems.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Funny isn't it. In actual play there are seldom problems.

If you want to play rogue, I find it quite relevant to clear it up with the DM before you even join the group, though.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If you want to play rogue, I find it quite relevant to clear it up with the DM before you even join the group, though.

Never wrong to do that.

 

[Arial Black]

If someone has the potential to suddenly decide to murder you, then in my opinion, that person is a threat and always was.

That's the logical disconnect right there.

You're assuming, incorrectly, that anyone who is now a threat was always a threat.

But in the scenarios we're using as examples, the person was not a threat the whole time!

In the diplomacy example, none of the people present are threats (in combat terms), until someone decides to initiate combat.

What happened to move someone from 'non-threat' to 'threat'?

In narrative terms, someone said something about his mother.

In game terms, he initiates combat!

Because, in game terms, 'surprise' is inextricably linked to the first round of combat! In game mechanics, 'surprise' has no other function whatsoever, because its effects only apply to the first round of combat.

Therefore, another person possibly being a threat at some unspecified time in the future does not intersect with the 5E surprise rules. Only when combat rounds begin is surprise determined, at this is the moment when the rules adjudicate whether or not you were expecting to actually be attacked at that moment.

You've been in negotiations for an hour. Although these guys are the 'bad guys' in campaign terms (we are negotiating so that our countries can end the war, implying that we are at war), we do not expect the negotiators to draw daggers and attack. The guards don't assume that; if they did then they'd mow everyone down as they walked into the room! The guards are on the lookout for someone going postal(!), but even they would not expect the danger to be from the diplomats themselves.

TLDR, creatures can turn from 'non-threat' to 'threat'; 'surprise', and the determination thereof, is only done as combat begins, so the fact that you think that someone could be a threat if they were to attack you is irrelevant. Only at the moment they actually attack you do the rules determine whether this caught you....flat-footed, for want of a better term.

 

[Remathilis]

Guys, can you please take the assassin/initiative/surprise discussion to its own thread?

Deaf ears...

Anyway, I missed the rule where a warlord can shout at a guy and heal his wounds after he was felled by another guy who damaged him on a miss. #threadexplodes ;-)