• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Liz Schuh on Dragon/Dungeon moving to the web

MoogleEmpMog

First Post
freebfrost said:
Hey, can I import them into my laptop here? I'll just put them into my... um.... my... dvd drive?

Do you really expect the average person to have the access, technological saavy, and means to be able to do that Moogle? I don't think WotC is targeting the slashdot crowd for their DI.

I'm essentially tech-nonfunctional. I've never successfully made a change to the internal hardware of a personal computer in over twenty years of owning them, no matter how plug-and-play it was supposed to be or how closely I tried to follow the directions.

Where the 5.25" discs are concerned, I *still have a working C-64*. It's never been modded, serviced by a professional, or had its inner workings so much as cleaned. Those suckers are ROCKS.

In terms of the wordperfect files, they've just been copied from PC to PC as part of the familial infodump. I guess most people just trash their old files, or store them off-disc? My experience is that old files are copied en masse when a new computer replaces an old one, since hard drives escalate. Contra others' assertions, word processing programs are, IMX, pretty much 100% backwards-compatible with the major formats of even two decades ago. I suppose those files tend to get gradually saved in new formats as I reference them.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Raven Crowking

First Post
MoogleEmpMog said:
WotC essentially made two separate decisions.

Well, we certainly agree that they made two decisions, although the degree to which those decisions were seperate is unknowable at this time.

One was to create digital content, including magazine-like content, and charge for it. How much and what kind of content, and how much to charge - these are things we don't know. We DO know they're going to be adding SOMETHING, and we're all but certain we'll have to pay for at least some of it.

Agreed, and I would also agree with you that "running a print magazine business would have far too low a profit margin for WotC".

The other was to bring the (at least somewhat valuable) Dungeon and Dragon brands back in-house. WotC appears to want the NAMES back (perhaps especially for the 'dragon compendium' style products they've indicated will likely appear).

Well, let's look at that a bit more.

(1) We know that this isn't the only brand name WotC has pulled back in-house.

(2) We know that there was a special arrangement made to allow the mags to stay at Paizo until the current AP ends.

(3) We strongly suspect, from Paizo's insistence that we think of Pathfinder as a book, that Paizo is under some form of non-compete clause re: magazines, strongly suggesting that more than the NAMES are important. This also suggests that these two "seperate" decisions might not be so seperate after all.

(4) We know that the 1st AP product was repackaged as a book, and sold well.

(5) We know that Paizo didn't receive permission to compile the 2nd AP as a book.

(6) We know that many WotC modular "adventure" products are becoming increasingly minis-centric....very different from what we see in Dungeon.

(7) We know that Paizo successfully demonstrated that references to old modules sell adventures....witnessed in both the APs and in Maure Castle.

(8) We know that WotC is also creating the Expedition series of hardbacks. Coincidence or connection?

(9) We know that Paizo had its PR machine in place for the announcement of the mags' end, but WotC did not....this suggests to me that Paizo had more to do with the announcement's timing that WotC did.

These things taken together suggest (to me, at least) that WotC sees Paizo as a competitor, and a successful one with an excellent product. Some of that product is based off of property WotC owns (such as those old module tie-ins). It therefore makes sense to me that, intending to develop its own content along the same lines, removes what competition it can.

This is just speculation, of course.

However, even if I'm correct, even if I understand why the decision was made, it still sucks, for a number of reasons.

First, because the mags (or print mags) ending is, in a way, the ending of an era for the game. While WotC is not legally obligated to tell us why they are ending that era, I nonetheless feel that they are obligated to give us some explaination. I hold them to my moral compass with my support and money.....that is my right and my duty under a free market economy.

Second, because of the implication that Paizo's content was pulled on the basis of its success and value. That success and value means that I will continue to support Paizo with my dollars, rather than WotC's DI. Again, I hold them to my moral compass with my support and money.....that is my right and my duty under a free market economy.

Thirdly, because I have no intention of subscribing to online content sight-unseen. For the most part (unless there are special goodies, like fold-out maps) Dungeon and Dragon were browsable. On top of which, the consistent quality of Dungeon and Dragon meant that one could both subscribe (after testing the product) and pick up polybagged issues with confidence. Frankly, I am concerned to discover that I am paying for articles on how to nerf rust monsters and change cats to make them more of an adventure challenge.....Or articles telling me how wandering monsters, traps, and verisimilitude are wrongbadfun.

Finally, because Paizo's content is, IMHO, superior to the WotC content at this time, at least insofar as adventures are concerned. I recently picked up Barrow of the Forgotten King, and -- while I liked the map quite a bit -- I didn't care for the idea of flipping the module back and forth to run single encounters. Text for single encounters should not be in seperate locations of the booklet. Nor did I care for the "Tell the players to place thier minis on the map" type content. YMMV....obviously, some of yours varies quite a bit on this point.

RC
 

Storm Raven

First Post
billd91 said:
No, he's not. Paper does go through chemical changes in time, but so does computer media. Computer media also has a tendency to go through format changes, something paper forms do not, that can make data archives incompatible with current hardware.
There are old US government archives on old computer formats that are now, without tremendous expense, unaccessible. Contrast that with over 100 years of government documents still preserved on paper and still usable.

Which is exactly why government agencies, like the one I work for, are required to keep paper copies of documents as archives, and not simply rely upon electronic storage.
 

BryonD

Hero
freebfrost said:
How's that 5 1/4" floppy disk backup from 1980 doing? Was it formatted for Tandy or DOS or Commodore? Was it a WordPerfect document?

;)

Media changes. Hardware and software standards change. Paper doesn't.
Being as I don't have trouble staying with the times, I wouldn't know.
Everything I need is on up to date media. Pretty simple to do really.
I note you are still ducking my questions. Seems telling......

And if you honestly think that a typical person can just go lay their hands on an 1980s copy of Dragon magazine, find the actual article they wanted, and find the paper to still be in good shape, then you are dreaming.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
billd91 said:
No, he's not. Paper does go through chemical changes in time, but so does computer media. Computer media also has a tendency to go through format changes, something paper forms do not, that can make data archives incompatible with current hardware.
There are old US government archives on old computer formats that are now, without tremendous expense, unaccessible. Contrast that with over 100 years of government documents still preserved on paper and still usable.

In fact, Alenda and some of the other professional librarians over on Circvs Maximus were bringing up the concept of the "digital dark age" in a different conversation -- it's both a fascinating and a scary topic to consider. Not that big for the majority of Online-only consumers, :) but still a topic worth notice.
 

BryonD

Hero
Storm Raven said:
Which is exactly why government agencies, like the one I work for, are required to keep paper copies of documents as archives, and not simply rely upon electronic storage.
I work with government agencies a lot.
Recently I've been getting requests that we cease sending them paper and start sending electronic files only.

And "having" the files is one thing, being able to use them is another. I've been on records searches at government facilities only to find boxes and boxes of paper (and you have to go through 100 to find the one you want). It is not at all uncommon to find papers which have become glued to each other over the years, or to find that the ink has come off one page onto the back of another.

Also, on two recent events I had a government official come ask me to provide replacements for documents because they had completely lost their originals.

Paper is great for a lot of applications. But long term storage of paper just leads to an indexing disaster that often leads to a dead end or determination that the data is just plain gone.
 

freebfrost

Explorer
Jim Hague said:
And paper's a fine format - but arguing that it's somehow sacrosanct and therefore superior is just bunk. Or are you arguing that because you take archival care of your magazines, somehow that applies to everyone? Paper decays, and the more acid that's used in it, the faster it goes. It's susceptible to spills, tears...but surely you know this.
I don't recall saying anything like that.

What I've been saying is that paper, if cared for, is more viable than electronic formats (with similar care) because of changing data, hardware, software, operating systems, etc.

Do you really think that in 50 years you'll be able to retrieve data from cds/dvds made today? You can read the written word from hundreds and thousands of years ago, but I'll challenge you to get me a copy of a document from a 1980's PC and saved on a 5 1/4" floppy disk and render it readable on your current PC. Now if you had a book written in 1982 about the Commodore computers on hand that had the same data, which is easier to access? How accessible do you think that disk will be in 20 more years - have you used an IBM punch card lately? ;)
 

BryonD

Hero
freebfrost said:
I don't recall saying anything like that.

What I've been saying is that paper, if cared for, is more viable than electronic formats (with similar care) because of changing data, hardware, software, operating systems, etc.

Do you really think that in 50 years you'll be able to retrieve data from cds/dvds made today? You can read the written word from hundreds and thousands of years ago, but I'll challenge you to get me a copy of a document from a 1980's PC and saved on a 5 1/4" floppy disk and render it readable on your current PC. Now if you had a book written in 1982 about the Commodore computers on hand that had the same data, which is easier to access? How accessible do you think that disk will be in 20 more years - have you used an IBM punch card lately? ;)
Silly pointless comments about punch cards and 5 1/4" floppies show how much you are reaching to make a case.

Maintaining files on up to date media is SIMPLE!!!!!! Much easier than maintaining searchable and servicable paper archives.

Not that I really care what D&D data I'll have access to from today fifty years from now, but I absolutely guarantee you that I, and the vast majority of other random people, will find it far easier to recover 50 year old electronic files than it will be to find the specific article I want in an intact and unfaded 50 year old copy of Dragon.

The bottom line is that both forms have pluses and minuses, but you are radically misrepresenting the problems with electronic while also radically overstating the merits of paper. And your case is founded on this extreme double standard.
 

hexgrid

Explorer
freebfrost said:
What I've been saying is that paper, if cared for, is more viable than electronic formats (with similar care) because of changing data, hardware, software, operating systems, etc.

I don't think you are applying "similar care" to both formats. "Care" for digital information would involve converting it to new formats as they become available- not letting it sit for 20 years before you try to access it.

Obviously, paper and digital storage each have a completely different set of negative and positive qualities. I have plenty of use for both, personally. Trying to argue that one is universally better than the other is pointless.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
Henry said:
In fact, Alenda and some of the other professional librarians over on Circvs Maximus were bringing up the concept of the "digital dark age" in a different conversation -- it's both a fascinating and a scary topic to consider. Not that big for the majority of Online-only consumers, :) but still a topic worth notice.

FYI - link to the conversation that Henry is talking about http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?t=5394
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top