Longsword Finesse bummer

[77IM]

Not all feats exist to make your character into the six-million dollar man. Some of them exist so roleplayers can get their flavor on. Judge the feat on who and what it was made for, not for only one purpose.

The very purpose of much-vaunted game balance is to allow role-players to get their flavor on without penalizing them mechanically (within the expectations of the genre -- no need to balance low-Int wizards, for example). So I suggest setting aside the aspect of "well, you might want this for role-playing reasons," because, while that's absolutely true, it is orthogonal to whether or not the feat is balanced.

-- 77IM

 

[77IM]

AND weapon enchantments based on heavy blades, such as Vorpal.

Vorpal is awesome.

Vorpal's pretty good, but not a deciding factor. It turns out that exploding dice are approximately +1 damage per die. So if your average attack at high levels is dealing 3.5[W], which seems reasonable, vorpal cancels out the reduced Sneak Attack. (If vorpal lets you re-roll Sneak Attack dice, that's even better -- it's unclear to me whether that is the case.) But you need to wait until very high levels to see vorpal weapons.

-- 77IM

 

[Danceofmasks]

Using a longsword also locks out nimble blade ... nimble blade is teh win.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

The real trouble of this feat is if you are an Eladrin Barbarian, and want to multiclass into Rogue, to take advantage of Surprising Charge and other features the new Rogue has that support a charge oriented build.
I posted something I thought was the motherload of charging power on the gleemax board, but then had to stand corrected that the longsword just doesn't do what it should do.
I'm working on rebuilding the concept with a rapier. Yes, it's not good flavor, and I lose the 1 damage because it's not versatile. But just look at the damage output at the start of an encounter... 5d8 +4d6 +19 at level 18

 

[Ipissimus]

I think I see the logic to the feat for single classed Eladrin Rogues.


It's analogous to feats like 2-weapon fighting rather than WP: Rapier. Wield the Longsword with 2-hands, get +1 damage over wielding the rapier when you don't have combat advantage (your mileage may vary depending on how good you are at getting CA). Probably not worth the effort unless you've already taken Quick Draw and can whip out a short sword for SA (even then, it's a dubious advantage).

Not a great, must have, feat but not awful.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Or ... just use a dagger.
+1 hitroll > +2 damroll
Heck, IMO +1 hitroll > +3 damroll ... which is why my cleric uses a dagger.

 

[kouk]

I think it's pretty darn good compared to the Rapier. Not for everybody, but no feat should be for everybody. Particularly good for those Brutal Rogues.

Heavy Blade Opportunity: Your OA attacks as a Rogue now use your Dexterity instead of your Strength, and you can apply your At-Will bonuses.
What's that? You allow me to take an OA against you? Well I can now move 2 squares instead/in addition (Deft Strike) and you can't retaliate because you can't take OAs on your own turn.

Blade Opportunist: Again for OAs (Hey, Brutal Rogues see those now and then) and your OAs with possibly your At-Will attacks hit more often.

Eladrin Soldier at Heroic/Paragon and then retrain it to Weapon Focus when you reach Epic.


I think it gives nice options for multiclassed characters certainly, which alone makes it so that the Rogue Multiclass feat might actually be chosen by more classes.

EDIT:
Lots of interesting Heavy Blade enchantments, many of which have higher than d6 crits which partially balance out the loss of damage.

And of course, nothing is really stopping you from utilizing a longsword in one hand and a dagger in the other, besides possible money issues. You can benefit from both types of weapons there.

 

[Ipissimus]

Or ... just use a dagger.

-slaps forehead- Yeah, I keep forgetting that (even though I use it in game... sorry, brain fart). Which brings up the point that Quick Draw is useful anyway for whipping out a shuriken when needed.

I think it's pretty darn good compared to the Rapier. Not for everybody, but no feat should be for everybody.

Agreed. Without the d6 SA penalty, it'd outmode WP: Rapier... admittedly for Eladrin Rogues only but still it's nice that the Rapier is still competitive for those that want to run it.

I don't see OAs too much but maybe that's because the party has 2 defenders.

 

[Ibixat]

-slaps forehead- Yeah, I keep forgetting that (even though I use it in game... sorry, brain fart). Which brings up the point that Quick Draw is useful anyway for whipping out a shuriken when needed.


Agreed. Without the d6 SA penalty, it'd outmode WP: Rapier... admittedly for Eladrin Rogues only but still it's nice that the Rapier is still competitive for those that want to run it.

I don't see OAs too much but maybe that's because the party has 2 defenders.

I think shuriken are a waste for rogues after the two fisted shooter feat came out.
Treat hand crossbow as off hand weapon, you can reload it one handed as a free action and hey lets heap on there that if you score a crit and have a hand crossbow in your off hand, you can make a ranged basic attack with it.

Last night we opened a door to a room, there was a pit and a goblin on the other side, no suprise round, the goblin was standing before another set of double doors and was supposed to apparently warn the room on the other side of door about anyone coming in, I get my ridiculously high initiative, hurl my dagger at him and crit, 49 damage from sly flourish, 4 dagger, +10 + 16 sneak attack plus 19 more from 2d12 from viscious. He's not dead yet but then a free basic ranged attack plunks him in the head for 6 more damage (I rolled a 1 on the stupid d6) and he's down, gave us ample time to scramble over the pit without any danger =)

The only benefit I see from using a shuriken now is the +1 to hit, I rarely have a hard time hitting with my rogue as it is, oh yeah and I may just replace quick draw with something else now that I no longer worry about getting a shuriken out, I just walk around with my dagger and hand crossbow out already. If I need a potion it may take me one extra minor action that round compared to quick draw but I can take improved initiative instead or some other feat at this point.

 

[Benly]

Agreed. Without the d6 SA penalty, it'd outmode WP: Rapier... admittedly for Eladrin Rogues only but still it's nice that the Rapier is still competitive for those that want to run it.

..how would it make Rapier outmoded? The numbers are identical, and there are more rogue-oriented light-blade-only enchantments and feats than heavy-blade-only. Removing the d6 penalty would bring it up to the level of fully viable alternative - you gain some unorthodox options, while losing some quite good standard rogue options.