Looking for opinions on hijacking a player's spell (I DM)

[Book of Vile Derp]

I'll accept a ceasefire. I admit that anything with even the faintest odor of munchkining can make me act a bit hostile. But with both things being at that level of power (CR 14 and 15 for a character that's level 18) they are powerful enough to where a difference that tiny should only be perceptible to player, and not the character itself.

 

[Book of Vile Derp]

I'll accept a ceasefire. I admit that anything with even the faintest odor of munchkining can make me act a bit hostile. But with both things being at that level of power (CR 14 and 15 for a character that's level 18) they are powerful enough to where a difference that tiny should only be perceptible to player, and not the character itself.

 

[Greenfield]

Offering closure is all well and good.

Offering closure in a way that's likely to get the character and her companions killed? Not so much.

You throw Gate to call in an Angel? Go big or go home! She's going to go for the Solar. Planetar is second fiddle. Trumpet Archon isn't in the orchestra.

She'll call in what she needs, because she needs it. Substituting an "also ran" in the climactic battle? Just because you aren't satisfied with the player's choices and RPing in a now-defunct story arc?

When a DM starts making decisions for the players, or the player choices have no impact on what happens, it stops being a rope-playing game and turns in a DM playing solitaire with a captive audience.

The DM can't be wrong about a rules question, but the can sure muck up a campaign. I've seen entire player groups walk over this type of thing. Don't do it.

 

[JamesonCourage]

DM's only need to be sneaky and create "surprises" when they know deep down their players might respond poorly. If you know your players won't react poorly, there's no need to be sneaky.

This thread isn't the best thread, since there's quite a bit of one-way-truism going on, but this post probably takes the cake. Wow.

Well, you play your way, and I'll play my way. As always, play what you like

 

[Dozen]

I'll accept a ceasefire. I admit that anything with even the faintest odor of munchkining can make me act a bit hostile. But with both things being at that level of power (CR 14 and 15 for a character that's level 18) they are powerful enough to where a difference that tiny should only be perceptible to player, and not the character itself.

I'm glad you forgave me. And I agree, the difference between the two may go over a PC's head... but it has gone over the player's head, too. He is quite possibly digging his character's grave.
Don't forget, creatures of the Outsider type are intentionally more powerful than the CR would indicate. Take a look: even when assuming a closed place, the Archon would smack the Marut around like an adamantine tatterball! Maruts were designed as inappropriate encounters against spellcasters who meddle with life forces, not to fight with combatants of their own level. Archons have better initiative, hit points, spellcasting, flight, ridiculous saves, skills and feats, even his weapon bypasses an Inevitable's DR. The Marut on the other hand, being a Construct, has no skills, feats, or a Constitution score, rendering his Concentration checks as terrible as they can get. All you'd need is an effect that disrupts spellcasting, and the "Inevitable" becomes a glorified piece of sentient scrap metal. That notwithstanding, it still cannot possibly heal itself fast enough while it tries and fails to damage any one of the opposing noncasters. Unless Construct traits, Greater Dispel and superior HD are for some reason more fitting against the antagonists, he's in for a good lesson on not trusting Challenge Rating so much.
Point these out to him, or have the character feel the mistake on her skin, whichever you feel appropriate.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Her deity is Chaotic Good.

What is the cleric's alignment?

Because if you use gate to summon an inevitable it becomes a lawful spell. If the cleric is chaotic good or chaotic neutral then she cannot cast gate to bring in an inevitable.

Though I suppose the same logic would shoot down the archon too.

 

[Oryan77]

If you want to "provide" the chance for story resolution but you don't want to step on any toes, then do it in a way where you are giving the player the chance to decide, "I can either summon what I want to win a fight, or summon this mysterious being to find out what is going on and possibly still win a fight with it."

So let him begin casting his Gate spell. Tell him something like, "You catch a flickering image of a Marut trying to exit through the gate, but between the flickering images of the Marut, you see flickering images of a magnificent well-armored celestial that seems to also be trying to push itself through the gate (the Trumpet Archon father). The spell seems to be trying to force the resisting Marut through the gate while simultaneously trying to restrict this willing angelic winged creature from pushing itself through. Between the flickering images of the two creatures, you think you hear the winged celestial call out your name. The spell only allows for 1 creature to pass through the gate. You chant the verbal words to your prayer with more focused determination to force the spell to completion. Do you call the Marut through the gate as intended, or do you hold him on his home plane and allow what appears to be a Trumpet Archon to step through as it seems to want to do?"

Something like this will give the player his own choice. Sure, you might be manipulating the player to call for the Archon by making it sound more important, but it will be his own choice. That way he can't complain and if he chooses the Marut, then you know for sure he doesn't really care about the side-story and just wants to whoop butt with a Marut.

 

[Jacob Marley]

If you want to "provide" the chance for story resolution but you don't want to step on any toes, then do it in a way where you are giving the player the chance to decide, "I can either summon what I want to win a fight, or summon this mysterious being to find out what is going on and possibly still win a fight with it."

So let him begin casting his Gate spell. Tell him something like, "You catch a flickering image of a Marut trying to exit through the gate, but between the flickering images of the Marut, you see flickering images of a magnificent well-armored celestial that seems to also be trying to push itself through the gate (the Trumpet Archon father). The spell seems to be trying to force the resisting Marut through the gate while simultaneously trying to restrict this willing angelic winged creature from pushing itself through. Between the flickering images of the two creatures, you think you hear the winged celestial call out your name. The spell only allows for 1 creature to pass through the gate. You chant the verbal words to your prayer with more focused determination to force the spell to completion. Do you call the Marut through the gate as intended, or do you hold him on his home plane and allow what appears to be a Trumpet Archon to step through as it seems to want to do?"

Something like this will give the player his own choice. Sure, you might be manipulating the player to call for the Archon by making it sound more important, but it will be his own choice. That way he can't complain and if he chooses the Marut, then you know for sure he doesn't really care about the side-story and just wants to whoop butt with a Marut.

Yes! Great post [MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION].

 

[PureGoldx58]

If you want to "provide" the chance for story resolution but you don't want to step on any toes, then do it in a way where you are giving the player the chance to decide, "I can either summon what I want to win a fight, or summon this mysterious being to find out what is going on and possibly still win a fight with it."

So let him begin casting his Gate spell. Tell him something like, "You catch a flickering image of a Marut trying to exit through the gate, but between the flickering images of the Marut, you see flickering images of a magnificent well-armored celestial that seems to also be trying to push itself through the gate (the Trumpet Archon father). The spell seems to be trying to force the resisting Marut through the gate while simultaneously trying to restrict this willing angelic winged creature from pushing itself through. Between the flickering images of the two creatures, you think you hear the winged celestial call out your name. The spell only allows for 1 creature to pass through the gate. You chant the verbal words to your prayer with more focused determination to force the spell to completion. Do you call the Marut through the gate as intended, or do you hold him on his home plane and allow what appears to be a Trumpet Archon to step through as it seems to want to do?"

Something like this will give the player his own choice. Sure, you might be manipulating the player to call for the Archon by making it sound more important, but it will be his own choice. That way he can't complain and if he chooses the Marut, then you know for sure he doesn't really care about the side-story and just wants to whoop butt with a Marut.

Great idea, very passive-aggressive (in a good way) way of getting the player to make the choice about the role playing, while simultaneously opening up the possibility of a quest for him to find out about it later if he doesn't choose to let the Archon through that time.

 

[Book of Vile Derp]

If you want to "provide" the chance for story resolution but you don't want to step on any toes, then do it in a way where you are giving the player the chance to decide, "I can either summon what I want to win a fight, or summon this mysterious being to find out what is going on and possibly still win a fight with it."

So let him begin casting his Gate spell. Tell him something like, "You catch a flickering image of a Marut trying to exit through the gate, but between the flickering images of the Marut, you see flickering images of a magnificent well-armored celestial that seems to also be trying to push itself through the gate (the Trumpet Archon father). The spell seems to be trying to force the resisting Marut through the gate while simultaneously trying to restrict this willing angelic winged creature from pushing itself through. Between the flickering images of the two creatures, you think you hear the winged celestial call out your name. The spell only allows for 1 creature to pass through the gate. You chant the verbal words to your prayer with more focused determination to force the spell to completion. Do you call the Marut through the gate as intended, or do you hold him on his home plane and allow what appears to be a Trumpet Archon to step through as it seems to want to do?"

Something like this will give the player his own choice. Sure, you might be manipulating the player to call for the Archon by making it sound more important, but it will be his own choice. That way he can't complain and if he chooses the Marut, then you know for sure he doesn't really care about the side-story and just wants to whoop butt with a Marut.

I effing love this idea! And will be deleting what I had thought prior the next time I open up my DM notes document. I'm virtually positive that this would let me wrap up that plot line, while still giving my player the choice in the matter, because if I start describing the archon to look like his father, I can't imagine him not picking it.