Looting the looters (my group stay out!)

[Spatzimaus]

Spatzimaus makes some good point, but his logic seems to make a fairly common mistake; i.e. modern economics and legalities do not necessarily apply to a fantasy campaign. in the standard mediveal society (which most campaign seem to default to) acqusition by conquering is perfectly acceptable.

And your logic makes an even more common mistake: assuming that D&D has any connection to mideival Europe beyond the technology level. Remember, in D&D you have:
1> Raise Dead, Speak With Dead, and the ability to travel physically to whatever afterlife someone is sent to
2> Locate Object, Object Reading, and Legend Lore
3> Creatures that live for over 1000 years, not counting undeath
4> Stable societies that survive for several thousand years
5> Many different planes, each with its own societies, morals, and laws, many of which are inherently aligned to a specific set of values.
6> and, the ability to directly ask questions of an omniscient deity.

Put these together, and you have an environment where it's easily possible to determine an item's true owner. And, it's practically guaranteed that not every society would agree with whatever morals your players have, either in general or in specific cases.
For example, Lawful creatures like the Rock Em Sock Em Modrons probably think more like "every object has its proper place in the universe, so anyone who resists returning the object to its original place is anathema". Maybe that's why the Marching Marching Modrons are on the move. (Sorry, but every time I see the Modrons I think of toys). It doesn't even have to be the inherently lawful types like Modrons or Formians; the Dwarves probably have more rigid property laws than the Halflings would.
Then there are the religious types; let's say the ghouls siezed an artifact of the Church of Moradin when they took Mrid. The Dwarves weren't capable of retreiving the item while the ghouls had it, but do you think they would ever tolerate the item being sold in a pawn shop on the surface just because some adventurers were short on cash? Okay, so maybe the DoD would willingly return something of Moradin's; what if it was sacred to Mog, the Beetle God? What if it was just some family heirloom of a rich family? What if it was the sole valuable heirloom of a relatively poor family? If ANY of these are from a society where stolen items belong to their original owners, it becomes an issue.

Then, there's the question of need. Your adventurers might believe that the victors are entitled to the spoils, but the poor Dwarves who lost all their possessions and half their family running from Mrid might not agree. They want their stuff back, and just because they can't take it from you by force doesn't mean it's rightfully yours. If you're talking about individual items looted from someone trying to kill you, that's one thing, but we're talking about the products of dozens of civilizations.

 

[Negative Zero]

you're quite right in most of what you say, and perhaps i wasn't clear enough in my previous post. i didn't mean to imply that you were necessarily wrong, but rather that there were other likely (and just as valid) points of view. opinion is not legality. and in a fantasy world it is possible to create any legal system to suit your needs. (which ironically supports both your and my opinion )

~NegZ

we now return you to your regularly sceduled thread ...

 

[Wolfspirit]

- art (including statuary)
- jewelry
- monuments
- unique weaponry
- books and information
- history
- magic

My first thought about a ghoulish city is bone. Lots of it. If you look at the building materials that have been popular to the ghoulish army, you'll see siege engines and ballistas all built out of the remains of enemies. This seems like an indication that they're light on mineral / metal wealth, other than that siezed from assimilated civilizations.

I personally think it'd be cool to have buildings made out of a combination of bone and stone... with the posibility of crystal and stalactites/mites included. One pretty vivid image I have is the skeletal remains of a giant... possibly one of their powerfull leaders that refused to succumb to ghoulism that was animated to provide some movement, yet was restricted by massive crystal sculptures that bind him. Imagine walkint into the city and seeing a "Giant Tower" writhing slowly... I think I'm going to have to draw this at some point. Something of this nature might also have a defensive purpose... noone expects the frigging buildings to start attacking.

Another monument that I'm not sure if it would cross the line, is some collection of "tokens" taken from childeren that have been slain for the crusade. Might have to put some more thought into this one (I'm not sure how well it would mesh with the way you've seen the ghouls dealing with "non-surface dwellers", but a real vivid "this is why you've fought for months in the land Aeos forgot" might create more of a sense of accomplishment than any stuff they might find. Might also be cool if it gives some more clues to the ghoulish prophecy about the child, which might actually be accurate

Well, enough of the Post of Vile Darkness... probably going to teach D&D to a girl here soon.

 

[Spatzimaus]

you're quite right in most of what you say, and perhaps i wasn't clear enough in my previous post.

And I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong about the "default" D&D society. In a normal situation, you'd be governed by the laws of the society you're in, and they'd probably let the DoD take whatever they wanted. But, this isn't a normal situation; many, many civilizations are being affected by what the Defenders have done. Each has its own laws, and it's a fair bet that at least one of those would have the sort of attitude I mentioned.
For example, the Mind Flayers probably don't like the idea of surface adventurers (including a Githzerai!) taking items that should rightfully be theirs. In Illithid society all lower beings are slaves, forbidden to own property, so the property never stopped belonging to the Illithids.
The players will be confronted by the laws of many different societies, and they can either choose to ignore them (which may or may not be dangerous for the Paladins depending on which race they're dealing with) or end up at odds with various other powerful people. Not to mention the "good" versus "evil" aspect.

Anyway, the reason I had big long posts about this in the first place was that in a previous campaign, once the players reached the teens in level we shifted to a very political-based campaign, so I had to work up a whole LOT of rules for economics and legalities. It got really hairy once they expanded into the planes, because there can be some organizations with a very, well, "proactive" view of economics. The kinds that use divinations to figure out market fluctuations, or that use divinations to see what laws they'll break in the future and then have the laws changed (or get some sort of exemption, or file a ton of paperwork) before the crimes happen.

To quote a particularly appropriate episode of 8-Bit Theater at http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030927

I-R-S, Dad. It stands for International Revenue Service. Basically... the gist of it is that everyone in the world owes us taxes. And anyone who doesn't come through with the money is subject to an audit.

It drove the party's Paladin crazy. Heh. Heh. The DoD would be far better suited to this sort of thing, since their Eversink experience taught them the importance of controlling the legal system.

So, to the original point, using the D&D equivalent of international law is a useful way to keep them from stealing everything that isn't nailed down (for that, they bring a crowbar), since it also brings up new plot hooks. If you don't want to bring the lawyers into it, just say that before the PCs finish picking through the city the looters start arriving, and let them figure out how to deal with it.

 

[Wynter Wolf]

The Rings of Whorl


10 magic rings of different types offering some form of defense ie: cold resist, feather falling and such. All are slightly inteligent. The rings are designed to be worn all by the same person. If more than one is worn by the same person theyre inteligence combine into one entity the more rings the smarter the entity.


If all 10 are worn by the same person it alows Whorl (the inteligent entity) to take over the body. Whorl is an Epic level Sorcerer scale to fit your campaign.

 

[The Lone Badger]

Who exactly is going to collect taxes from the DoD?

"You have to give us 10% of everything you find... err unless you don't want to that is. Nevermind."


Fungal goop: This spongy looking brownish goop seems to be full of fungal fibers. If slapped on a wound it acts like a potion of cure serious wounds, but the damaged tissue is replaced by some kind of fungal tissue. The fungus is replaced with normal tissue over a period of several weeks.

 

[Piratecat]

Bliss. I'm sitting here sick, with a non-functioning brain, but the things you folk have suggested have actually jump-started my imagination. There's some great stuff here!

I'll begin to sort through and pick and choose appropriate treasure. Thank you all, and feel free to add if you come up with more ideas.

So I don't forget: a portrait in a bone and jeweled frame. The painting shows the puppeteer enjoying a nice meal with Nolin. The meal is Velendo's split-open body, and the cups they're using are Mara's and Malachite's skulls. The painting is entitled "Old Friends."

 

[Wolfspirit]

Some more ideas. More as I think of them.

A Glamoured suit of platemail made from the remains of a slain paladin that is still aware (like the elf-skin suit), yet wants to atone for the sins it has been part of while worn. For instance: "At the battle of <fill in here> I could feel my soul sing for release as a blade whistled towards the unguarded chest of my captor, only to crush into my ribcage. The pain was immense, yet nothing compared to being aware of the attrocities my captor commited. Because I was there to save him."

Art from materials available in the underdark, like a "painting" made from polished fish scales of multiple colors.

Along the same lines, a tapestry woven from various humanoid hairs.

Magic: If you've got any spells that you'd like to alter or introduce for the 3.5 conversion, this might be a good chance to do so. In the place where the most forbidden magic is stored, there might be a simple looking sheet of music that is kept under a disproportinate number of traps and locks... that is actually the lyrics / instrumental to Otto's Irresistable Dance.

 

[Henry]

If any of the players are SERIOUSLY old school, as in "played the original Temple of Elemental Evil," put in a golden skull, with four gems embedded in the skull's crown (sapphire, amber, Ruby, diamond). It detects as magic, with some strong conjuration/portal type magic.

It's the Orb of Golden Death from the temple of Elemental Evil.

More conventionally:

-A stone throne that becomes a Stone Golem upon command for 1 hour per day.

-Living "wall art" - composed of a carefully-disssected ghoul on a bone frame, which stretches and changes shape in pleasing fashions (to a ghoul.)

 

[Eccles]

OK. I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but I'll take a stab at a marriage contract for you.

Give me the following:

DOWRY (Who pays it, and what is it?)

RIGHTS OF HUSBAND OVER WIFE (I'm assuming Agar will ostensibly take the Husband role, but with his rights totally eroded by the small print)

RIGHTS OF WIFE OVER HUSBAND

DISCORD (What happens if there's a difficulty in the marriage - this is likely to be pretty standard in an easy-livin' Halfling contract, and totally sadistic in an evil outsiders' contract - you may want to name a 3rd party as a 'conciliator'; whether you use a fudged name which is in fact Belial, or a halfling worshipper of the outsiders is up to you, but this seems to be the best way out for the outsiders).

DISSOLUTION OF MARRIAGE - Under what circumstances, and how are things (possessions, souls, etc) split?

Actually, I think the worst thing you can get Agar to do is wear a silly hat and tell a known Outsider "What's mine is yours, and what is yours is mine, 'till death do us part"...