TSR Lorraine Williams, unfairly lambasted?

[S'mon]

Remember B/X was aimed at kids. No demons, devil's etc.

I did wonder if maybe they should have released it as an AD&D module. But B3 comes from the B/X era, and B/X was not particularly juvenile or 'safe'. Moldvay's work like B4 is much more S&S than High Fantasy. And there is a 'Death Demon' in X2 Castle Amber.
Mentzer 1983 Basic (which I also love) is much more explicitly kid-friendly despite the murder of Aleena!

Edit: Found this Alexandrian investigation of the B3 controversy - The Day the Old School Died

 

[Zardnaar]

Personally b have no problem with the art but yeah imagine printing it now let alone 1981.

 

[Sadras]

The art is fine, some people are not.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Your supposed 'art depicting S&M ritual torture'

https://media.wired.com/photos/5b1ec6190da4a86262ab0a64/master/w_1716,h_1146,c_limit/The%20Illusion%20of%20the%20Decapus.png

The module text just describes some ugly humanoids poking their female captive with sticks. This is well within the traditional S&S fantasy mainstream.

Come on now, you can't be serious with this. It's literally an image of what most people looking at would associate with S&M and torture (which was the whole point, to avoid that association). It's the literal definition of what S&M and torture are. Even the body text describes taking what little clothes she has left on off. Oddly you changed "swords" to "sticks" and omitted that part about taking her clothes off. Hmm....

A beautiful young woman hangs from the ceiling. Nine ugly men can be seen poking their swords
lightly into her flesh, all the while taunting her in an unknown language and pulling at what few clothes
she has on. Part of her ankle length hair has been wrapped around her legs, securely binding them
together, while the rest of her hair has been used to tie her hands to a ceiling beam.

 

[Shardstone]

As probably one of the youngest people in this thread, I think I have a different perspective, because I don't worship Gygax, or even see him as much of a role model as a lot of others here do. I think that this perspective on Gygax that a lot of people in the previous generation hold makes Lorraine come off in a more negative light.

In my opinion, the two of them both destroyed a would-be fantastic game company and set back RPGs as a hobby by several decades with their terrible decisions.

 

[Morrus]

In my opinion, the two of them both destroyed a would-be fantastic game company and set back RPGs as a hobby by several decades with their terrible decisions.

Set back RPGs? In what sense? They continued to exist, continued to be developed, continued to be sold, and continued to be played. I'm not clear what "setting back" the hobby means. (And several decades? They've only been around about 40 years).

 

[Shardstone]

Set back RPGs? In what sense? They continued to exist, continued to be developed, continued to be sold, and continued to be played. I'm not clear what "setting back" the hobby means. (And several decades? They've only been around about 40 years).

I can't help but feel the Satanic Panic could have been handled better.

I can't help but feel that Arneson being forced to leave and then sue hindered TSR's potential.

I can't help but feel that smarter business decisions would have led to TSR blooming much harder than it did.

I can't help but feel that a smarter management of funds, of contracts, and of creatives would have led to TSR blooming much harder than it did.

Am I talking about a bunch of what-ifs? Yes. So ultimately its all useless. But I still feel this way.

Please don't confuse my statement with some strange idea that I'm saying that there was no RPG development. There was. I'm saying that things could have potentially been much brighter then they were.

 

[LordEntrails]

It's the literal definition of what S&M and torture are

S&M and torture are NOT synonymous. In fact, practitioners of S&M are very adamant about certain aspects (Safe, Sane, Consensual) that mean the two are absolutely exclusive.

Now, it is very reasonable that a piece of artwork could be interpreted to be representing a scene of either type.

 

[Umbran]

I can't help but feel the Satanic Panic could have been handled better.

Maybe. But.. could we have expected it to be handled better? TSR was tiny, and Public Relations management was not nearly so well-understood in the day (and if it was, could TSR have afforded a team smart enough to handle it?). Plus, the panic may have help[ed drive sales - so limiting the negative impact might have limited growth!

I can't help but feel that Arneson being forced to leave and then sue hindered TSR's potential.

Maybe? What we've heard is that Arneson was not interested in the business end and was not good at codifying and productizing - that seems to have been Gygax's forte. Arneson was an idea man. There's only so many great ideas you can expect the starting market to swallow.

It could have been handled better, in that Arneson personally should have been treated better.

I can't help but feel that smarter business decisions would have led to TSR blooming much harder than it did.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, understood the dynamics of the RPG market at the time. Heck, it could be said that nobody has really understood them until.. about now, actually - with 5e they seem to have finally found the sweet spot of content and rules generation.

So, yes, smarter business decisions could have been made, but the knowledge to expect anyone to be able to make them didn't exist yet.

I can't help but feel that a smarter management of funds, of contracts, and of creatives would have led to TSR blooming much harder than it did.

I am not sure harder-bigger-faster is actually the best way to move creative products forward. They did bloom massively. They already couldn't handle that well. Blooming even more would only have taken them beyond their ability to manage further.

 

[Parmandur]

I feel it is pretty hard to argue that if Gygax snorted less cocaine, whored around less, and was all around less dissolute with spending, he would have been better positioend to make solid busienss decisions.

Mistakes were made.

 

[S'mon]

Oddly you changed "swords" to "sticks"

Yeah I didn't re-read the text, even though it is available at Vaults of Pandius - http://www.pandius.com/b3_orig.pdf

It's certainly sexually suggestive, but less so than the Eldritch Wizardry cover.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yeah I didn't re-read the text, even though it is available at Vaults of Pandius - http://www.pandius.com/b3_orig.pdf

It's certainly sexually suggestive, but less so than the Eldritch Wizardry cover.

Again, the timeline is important. The Egbert thing had just happened a year prior, and people were going full on associating D&D with witchcraft and torture. You can't compare the art prior to that with the art direction right after.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah I didn't re-read the text, even though it is available at Vaults of Pandius - http://www.pandius.com/b3_orig.pdf

It's certainly sexually suggestive, but less so than the Eldritch Wizardry cover.

it seems to me two dynamics were in play, probably in varying degrees from person to person in this whole shebang: animus against "The Management" in Design directed towards someone viewed as part of the Other Side, and resentment against a female writer by the dudes in Design (see again Bill's comments in the Wired article). I ain't no super-woke feminist myself, but that latter played a part from everything I have seen.

It seems the art was designed to trigger a reaction among management, and Wells had been objecting to the art in the whole process.

 

[The Glen]

People forget that the satanic Panic send several people to prison for years on drummed up outrageous charges. The McMartin preschool case was the worst of the satanic panic. Everybody that was involved in the industry saw what happened if they didn't toe the line. We can laugh at it in hindsight but when it was going on it was a serious threat to the Hobby and everyone involved.

 

[Wiseblood]

Unfairly lambasted? Nah. Arguably the most recognized RPG brand (beloved by fans) and years at the helm. Not a gamer and not good at business. In fact those same business practices had a negative impact on the entire industry.

WotC turned it around. They did it quickly and in turn caused growth of the industry and increased the size and reach of the market.

Paizo had had the rug yanked from under them and had to compete against that name recognition. They did great.

 

[Morrus]

I can't help but feel the Satanic Panic could have been handled better.

I can't help but feel that Arneson being forced to leave and then sue hindered TSR's potential.

I can't help but feel that smarter business decisions would have led to TSR blooming much harder than it did.

I can't help but feel that a smarter management of funds, of contracts, and of creatives would have led to TSR blooming much harder than it did.

Am I talking about a bunch of what-ifs? Yes. So ultimately its all useless. But I still feel this way.

Please don't confuse my statement with some strange idea that I'm saying that there was no RPG development. There was. I'm saying that things could have potentially been much brighter then they were.

No, you misunderstand me. I was curious what you meant by "set back the hobby" - if the hobby was set back by several decades, then what does it look like today if that had not happened (or - the same question - what does it look like in several decades)? How does this setback manifest itself?

 

[darjr]

it seems to me two dynamics were in play, probably in varying degrees from person to person in this whole shebang: animus against "The Management" in Design directed towards someone viewed as part of the Other Side, and resentment against a female writer by the dudes in Design (see again Bill's comments in the Wired article). I ain't no super-woke feminist myself, but that latter played a part from everything I have seen.

It seems the art was designed to trigger a reaction among management, and Wells had been objecting to the art in the whole process.

actully I think your wrong. It looks like TSR was coming under pressure, externally and internally, when the Eldritch Wizardry book was published.

not to mention someone who has done better research than you has already stated thst Gary Gygax nixed it for the art that depicted TSR staff. Not for any perceived s&m content. It really looks like the story of that is hearsay born of misogyny.

 

[Parmandur]

Actually it was taken out of print because staff were depicted in an unflattering light.

actully I think your wrong. It looks like TSR was coming under pressure, externally and internally, when the Eldritch Wizardry book was published.

not to mention someone who has done better research than you has already stated thst Gary Gygax nixed it for the art that depicted TSR staff. Not for any perceived s&m content. It really looks like the story of that is hearsay born of misogyny.

?

Yes, the art was designed to sabotage the module.

 

[darjr]

Oops, that first bit it thought I removed, oh well.

 

[Parmandur]

Oops, that first bit it thought I removed, oh well.

I'm not sure I get the comment still

Listening to the interview with Wells, it seems that anti-Hippie bias, particularly on the part of the Blumes, played a big part.