Losing Class Features with Alignment Change

[Xath]

A character in my campaign was recently affected by the Morality Undone spell, changing her alignment from NG to NE. She was then Dominated, and it looks like the morality spell is going to be refreshed for the forseeable future.

The character has 2 prestige classes which require a good alignment for entry. One is the Hellreaver PrC from the Fiendish Codex II, and the other is a home-brew exalted prestige class of Lastai. Obviously with the alignment change, the PC won't be able to advance in the classes if she gains a new level. But would she retain the abilities from the PrC's that she already has?

 

[irdeggman]

From the FAQ

What happens when an assassin becomes non-evil?

A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class.” (Complete Warrior 16) You retain Hit Dice (and the hit points derived from), base attack bonus, and base save bonuses granted by the prestige class.

Check Complete Warrior pg 16 "Meeting Prestige Class Requirements"

"If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefits of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class."

It specifically mentions alignment changes as something that can cause this.

 

[Xath]

That's just what I was looking for. Thanks!

 

[Deset Gled]

Note that the rule from CW does not appear in the core rules or the SRD, and is incompatible with the Dragon Disciple PRC (which is core). I consider it to be an optional variant, like all other material from splat books.

 

[Xath]

Note that the rule from CW does not appear in the core rules or the SRD, and is incompatible with the Dragon Disciple PRC (which is core). I consider it to be an optional variant, like all other material from splat books.

What would you do in this situation, then?

 

[Kwitchit]

What would you do in this situation, then?

Up to the DM. I'd do it ability by ability, considering background- anything which seems like a skill of the PC is kept, anything which seems to be granted by a god (or an external agency) is out unless that agency is OK with the switch. In general, I'd keep (Ex) stuff, lose (Su). (Sp) goes unless the character is a spellcaster (and remains one after the alignment change)

Also, abilities that are hard to use for evil might be kept. For example, the Hellreaver may well have a divinely-granted ability that helps with killing evil outsiders. I don't see why a good deity would remove that- after all, a dead devil is a dead devil regardless of the alignment of the killer. The should be a narrow category- healing, for instance, should go.

I assume you realise why the Dragon Disciple is a problem with that rule- it has the racial prerequisite of "any nondragon" and at 10th level its type changes to Dragon, so it no longer meets its own prerequisite- which makes it lose all class abilities and stop being a dragon, so it gets its class abilities back, is a Dragon again- and so on until the DM or the player decide they've had enough.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Note that the rule from CW does not appear in the core rules or the SRD, and is incompatible with the Dragon Disciple PRC (which is core). I consider it to be an optional variant, like all other material from splat books.

It also isn't consistent with the effect on alignment changes on some core classes. I'd say it's a judgment call for the DM. (If I was the player, it would also be an academic one to make with his brand new NPC, but thats more a general forum discussion. ) I would consider whether the alignment restriction is based on divine investment or willingness to train.

The Assassin alignment restriction, for instance, I see entirely as a willingness to train issue, esp with the "Kill someone just to get into the class" requirement. There is a order of assassins who will only train the evil, so you have to be evil to be trained. If an assassin has a change of heart and becomes neutral or good, they are no longer welcome by the order and thus cannot be further trained, but the idea that they would magicly lose their training is a bit wacky.

On the other hand, a paladin-esq PrC where the majority of class features are gained by divine power harnessing the cosmological force of Good is not going to keep getting those powers channeled when her alignment changes. Both of the PrCs in this example sound like they are going to fit this classifications more than the assassin one, and the majority of class features (definitely all spell, spell like or supernatural ones) should be lost.

The Barbarian class, while core and not PrC is an interesting cross, in that a lawful barbarian losses Rage and the ability to progress but not other abilities. Rage, while not divine, does make sense to be related to a specific mindset rather than just something you needed that mindset to train in.

So, I think the one size fits all CW rule is a bad one and it's good that it can be considered optional. Look logically at the PrC and whether the alignment allowed the character to train in their abilities or actually powers the abilities at some level. Then go from there.

 

[Goobermunch]

Up to the DM. I'd do it ability by ability, considering background- anything which seems like a skill of the PC is kept, anything which seems to be granted by a god (or an external agency) is out unless that agency is OK with the switch. In general, I'd keep (Ex) stuff, lose (Su). (Sp) goes unless the character is a spellcaster (and remains one after the alignment change)

Also, abilities that are hard to use for evil might be kept. For example, the Hellreaver may well have a divinely-granted ability that helps with killing evil outsiders. I don't see why a good deity would remove that- after all, a dead devil is a dead devil regardless of the alignment of the killer. The should be a narrow category- healing, for instance, should go.

I assume you realise why the Dragon Disciple is a problem with that rule- it has the racial prerequisite of "any nondragon" and at 10th level its type changes to Dragon, so it no longer meets its own prerequisite- which makes it lose all class abilities and stop being a dragon, so it gets its class abilities back, is a Dragon again- and so on until the DM or the player decide they've had enough.

That's the problem with any transformative prestige class. But that's also an edge case. Aside from the Dragon Disciple (which, as noted above is a transformative class), are there any other prestige classes that would violate the Complete Warrior's rule?

--G

 

[irdeggman]

What would you do in this situation, then?

Are you using anything from CW at all, specifically any prestige classes?

If so then it is not really an "optional" book in your game.

The text also appears in CA (pg 17)

Check FC II to make sure that the text is not there (I don't have that book to check).

Basically if eithe CW or CA is being used then the case is made for it not really being "optional".

But, having said that - all prestige classes and there use are entirely optional (at the DM's option), so it can be done.

Note that the "rule" about not being able to advance in the class if you no longer meet the requirements to enter the class is not contained in the SRD or the DMG either - so you are already into using some sort of "supplemental rules".

 

[irdeggman]

It also isn't consistent with the effect on alignment changes on some core classes. I'd say it's a judgment call for the DM. (If I was the player, it would also be an academic one to make with his brand new NPC, but thats more a general forum discussion. ) I would consider whether the alignment restriction is based on divine investment or willingness to train.

Except for say the paladin class - where if a paladin ever ceases to be LG she loses all paladin spells and abilities.

This seems to be the closest match in the core classes as in regard to losing alignment requirement.