Losing Class Features with Alignment Change

[Kahuna Burger]

Except for say the paladin class - where if a paladin ever ceases to be LG she loses all paladin spells and abilities.

This seems to be the closest match in the core classes as in regard to losing alignment requirement.

yes, that's why I said some. There are 5 different core classes which are effected by losing an alignment requirement - Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk and Paladin. The Paladin and Druid have the most dramatic effects, (though still have the "but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies" exception) and as I said are probably a good model for the PrCs in this thread from their brief descriptions. But the three others also have explicit language on losing an alignment requirement, so there is nothing to say that the paladin is the closest for a general ruling.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Are you using anything from CW at all, specifically any prestige classes?

If so then it is not really an "optional" book in your game.

I'm not following your logic here. A DM can certainly choose to use parts of any supplement book on a case by case basis without any obligation to consider the entire book "binding".

 

[irdeggman]

I'm not following your logic here. A DM can certainly choose to use parts of any supplement book on a case by case basis without any obligation to consider the entire book "binding".

True enough - but then the book is not "optional" and if the DM is using prestige classes from that book - then the rules governing prestige classes contained therein are at the very least less than "optional".

Now, having said that - everything pertaining to prestige classes is totally optional and up to the DM per the DMG.

 

[Xath]

Every WotC published book is fair game in this campaign, with 3rd party stuff being allowed on a case by case basis.

 

[irdeggman]

Every WotC published book is fair game in this campaign, with 3rd party stuff being allowed on a case by case basis.

Sounds like, barring a specific ruling by the DM, that the CW & CA restriction applies then.

 

[Deset Gled]

What would you do in this situation, then?
...
Every WotC published book is fair game in this campaign, with 3rd party stuff being allowed on a case by case basis.

From this statement, I would assume that the CW rule applies, but I would definetally check with the DM to be sure. In games I've played in, this has actually never come up. If it did, I assume we would do as Kahuna Burger describes and decide on a case-by-case basis. The rule does make a certain amount of sense, it's just dangerous as a blanket statement.

That's the problem with any transformative prestige class. But that's also an edge case. Aside from the Dragon Disciple (which, as noted above is a transformative class), are there any other prestige classes that would violate the Complete Warrior's rule?

The Dragon Disciple is the only case that I know of that causes complete rules meltdown. However, there are a number of other ways you can create cognitive dissonance if you try. Any PrC with a racial requirement can cause problems if you change species somehow. For example, this means that any (epic) monk that reaches level 20 and becomes an outsider loses any PrCs that had a racial requirement, which is just silly since they still have the same body and training.

There have been other PrCs that appear in later splatbooks, like Races of Stone, with effects similar to the DD (i.e. racial requirement, but race is then changed). However, in all of the cases that I have found, they added in a note specifically stating that the racial change does not count towards meeting the prereqs of the PrC.

WotC could certainly add a lot of credibility to the CW rule by errataing the DD to add a similar phrase. Just as easily, they could also add the CW rule to the errata to the PHB or DMG to remove all doubt. For whatever reason, they have chosen not to do this. The fact that they have added errata to the PHB since CW was released is proof to me that CW rule is a variant, and is not included in the core books on purpose.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Just as easily, they could also add the CW rule to the errata to the PHB or DMG to remove all doubt. For whatever reason, they have chosen not to do this. The fact that they have added errata to the PHB since CW was released is proof to me that CW rule is a variant, and is not included in the core books on purpose.

I'm away from my RC... does it mention PrCs? If so, it's effectively errata to the PHB/DMG.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

Note that the rule from CW does not appear in the core rules or the SRD

Supplements can (and do) present new rules or clarify old ones.

and is incompatible with the Dragon Disciple PRC (which is core).

Er... that is subject to some interpretation (and appears to be more an oddity of the way Dragon Disciple was written than an actual intended rule).

I think the one size fits all CW rule is a bad one and it's good that it can be considered optional. Look logically at the PrC and whether the alignment allowed the character to train in their abilities or actually powers the abilities at some level. Then go from there.

Hm. Good points.

 

[Xath]

Hrm..with regards to the racial requirements, what happens if your PC dies and is reincarnated instead of resed?

 

[irdeggman]

I'm away from my RC... does it mention PrCs? If so, it's effectively errata to the PHB/DMG.

-Hyp.

Not there - one of the first places I checked.