Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[Incenjucar]

And alarm. Don't forget alarm.

A dragon that can't Unseen Servant or Sleep may as well just kill itself.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

A dragon that can't Unseen Servant or Sleep may as well just kill itself.

Is that even possible without magic?

 

[Derren]

Ok, I give up. It seems that the majority of people here are satisfied with dragons as combat monsters or don't really care much about internal cohesion of their world.
Otherwise I can't explain the tendency of some people to not think through thinks but instead just throw around "solutions" which have glaring holes when you apply something else than slash&hack tactics or otherwise completely misunderstand what I am posting.

What was the 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest in previous editions is now the 100x100 room with a pile of gold and a dragon.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

Ok, I give up. It seems that the majority of people here are satisfied with dragons as combat monsters or don't really care much about internal cohesion of their world.

No, it's just that the majority of people here don't think dragons need to be able to cast spells to be more than just combat monsters. And as it has been pointed to you time and time again, you could add spellcaster class levels to dragons, or just give them rituals for non-combat-affecting things like lair-building, long-range communication or whatever.

Otherwise I can't explain the tendency of some people to not think through thinks but instead just throw around "solutions" which have glaring holes when you apply something else than slash&hack tactics or otherwise completely misunderstand what I am posting.

The solutions offered have, to me at least, seemed mostly perfectly reasonable.

Just because you are hell-bent on believing that 4e is going to cripple dragons, doesn't mean you're right. Enjoy your misery, if that's what you want.

 

[Steely Dan]

Is that even possible without magic?

Like it centurion, like it.

 

[Dausuul]

Ok, I give up. It seems that the majority of people here are satisfied with dragons as combat monsters or don't really care much about internal cohesion of their world.
Otherwise I can't explain the tendency of some people to not think through thinks but instead just throw around "solutions" which have glaring holes when you apply something else than slash&hack tactics or otherwise completely misunderstand what I am posting.

What was the 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest in previous editions is now the 100x100 room with a pile of gold and a dragon.

*shrug* If that's what you want to believe, go ahead... but in the unlikely event that you ever play in any game I run, you will quickly learn just how dangerous a non-casting dragon can be.

 

[Stogoe]

The biggest mistake here is assuming that people are clueless or "doin it wrong" because they disagree with you. Sometimes, tastes just differ.

 

[shilsen]

The biggest mistake here is assuming that people are clueless or "doin it wrong" because they disagree with you. Sometimes, tastes just differ.

What he said. A lot of the nitpicking by Derren here could be applied to any theoretical discussion of any BBEG from previous fantasy and fiction. When you describe Sauron's rise to power as depicted by Tolkien, you can find dozens of places to say "But if X had done Y then Sauron would have been thwarted...." The point is that if a functional BBEG needs a reasonably plausible explanation. And we've had a lot of them in this thread, IMNSHO.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

What he said. A lot of the nitpicking by Derren here could be applied to any theoretical discussion of any BBEG from previous fantasy and fiction. When you describe Sauron's rise to power as depicted by Tolkien, you can find dozens of places to say "But if X had done Y then Sauron would have been thwarted...." The point is that if a functional BBEG needs a reasonably plausible explanation. And we've had a lot of them in this thread, IMNSHO.

I guess there are a lot of "wannabe" BBEG where those flaws actually manifested. Not all Dragons become master minds behind a city or kingdom. Some just die an ugly death when some wandering adventurers stumble upon one of their weaknesses.

At 5th level, the heroes stop a Dragon that is working together with a kobold tribe to gain power in a region.
At 10th level, the heroes stop a Dragon that is trying to get a few noble houses working for him.
At 15th level, the heroes find out that a Dragon has manipulating them to kill the first two Dragons so his secret rulership of the region remains unchallenged.
At 20th level, the heroes find a cabal of Dragons for which the previous Dragon was a member, who together manipulated a majority of the continent to fill their hoards.
Eventually, the heroes might have to stop one of the cabals founding members from achieving godhood...

 

[vagabundo]

Ok, I give up. It seems that the majority of people here are satisfied with dragons as combat monsters or don't really care much about internal cohesion of their world.
Otherwise I can't explain the tendency of some people to not think through thinks but instead just throw around "solutions" which have glaring holes when you apply something else than slash&hack tactics or otherwise completely misunderstand what I am posting.

What was the 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest in previous editions is now the 100x100 room with a pile of gold and a dragon.

The amount of cohesion that you seem to require would need a very complete write-up, more time that I can give (still I will see what I can put together over the next few days), but is easily done. Although enough examples have been given in both threads that a little imagination could flesh out the rest.

All that is required for a Dragon to influence human society and even rule a human kingdom is its intellect and long life. Through patience and its innate powers it could easily dominate small town or merchant guild and work up from there.

Most of your issues seem to hinge on a rejection of the dragon by humans, the fact that they would all wish for its destruction. I think you underestimate how people would react to the situation and how easily a dragon could manipulate the fears, greed and flaws of people to construct a huge network in quite a short time. And then maintain that network for generations.

Very few in the network may know that it is ruled by a dragon, its influence (through bribery and assassination) could spread much further than its membership would know.

Some dragons will have no interest in such a power, they might desire the freedom of flight and the hunt. Certainly there would be many different types of dragon personalities and some would, as you indicated above, be throw away encounters. But only if you as a DM want that to happen.

For those dragons that are inclined, their intellect and diplomacy are their main weapons ,not the combat powers and certainly not the handful of spells that dragons in 3.5e know.

Having the power over several towns or a kingdom and their armies, legions of spies, multiple lairs that it moves randomly too. Access and the money to have custom magic items created for it by the best mages money can buy.

With this behind it, and without insider help, there is no way that Adventures would get with bow shot of the dragon before they were assassinated or imprisoned.