Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[Propheous_D]

Ok, I give up. It seems that the majority of people here are satisfied with dragons as combat monsters or don't really care much about internal cohesion of their world.
Otherwise I can't explain the tendency of some people to not think through thinks but instead just throw around "solutions" which have glaring holes when you apply something else than slash&hack tactics or otherwise completely misunderstand what I am posting.

What was the 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest in previous editions is now the 100x100 room with a pile of gold and a dragon.

How to respond to this with out being condesending and caustic let me try to count the ways. As was stated in a previous response if you really think that then my friend you are truly missing everything that was stated here. My impression of your ability to DM and make world cohesion is about as interesting as the encounter you put above.

You make the massive mistake of assuming everything and have such a high opinion of your grasp of the way worlds work that everyone else is wrong. While revolution people can be like that, you are not presenting a revolutionary ideology, and so you don't qualify for it. I would suggest a stop drop and roll or a total ignoring of this thread. Understand that people have different ways of doing things.

I hope you have fun in your games but as stated if you come to one of our games you will realize just how naive you come accross to the rest of us as you try to poke holes and find nothing but more brick and mortar. Are we perfect, no never but the majority of people here are decent skilled gamers and I am going to side with the majority on this, not because I like doing that but because I think they are right.

 

[Hussar]

And thats how it is not in D&D. While the dragon still has his runners who have to dodge all the wilderness monsters the other organizations send their important message magically to its destination or at least teleport the messenger (or let him fly).

Again, as I mentioned in your challenge thread, PLEASE reread your DMG and the demographics section. You are mistaken as far as RAW is concerned as to how a D&D world should look. D&D worlds are not what you seem to think they are. You wouldn't find a 9th level wizard in anything smaller than a large city, and then, you'd only find ONE of her. Teleport networks for instant messaging is a nice idea, but is completely unsupported by RAW.

There's a reason people talk about Eberron being so heavily magictech. It's a departure from RAW, not a representation.

 

[WayneLigon]

You wouldn't find a 9th level wizard in anything smaller than a large city, and then, you'd only find ONE of her. Teleport networks for instant messaging is a nice idea, but is completely unsupported by RAW.

There's a reason people talk about Eberron being so heavily magictech. It's a departure from RAW, not a representation.

And even in Eberron, there isn't the level of extreme 'everyone uses fly and teleport' Derren seems to assume the norm for a standard D&D world. It's rare in Eberron for any NPC to be over 6th level, so almost no-one has access to those spells at all. For example in Sharn, the 'New York City' of the setting, there are two guys that can bring dead people back to life. And it would take a lot to get them to do it.

 

[WayneLigon]

And thats how it is not in D&D. While the dragon still has his runners who have to dodge all the wilderness monsters the other organizations send their important message magically to its destination or at least teleport the messenger (or let him fly).

You do know that Fly has a fairly short duration and that it's not Overland Flight? Fly last for a few minutes and you're kinda gliding through the air at a trotting speed. Overland Flight only works on the caster, so you're having 10th level wizards carrying messages around like pigeons?

 

[Derren]

And even in Eberron, there isn't the level of extreme 'everyone uses fly and teleport' Derren seems to assume the norm for a standard D&D world. It's rare in Eberron for any NPC to be over 6th level, so almost no-one has access to those spells at all. For example in Sharn, the 'New York City' of the setting, there are two guys that can bring dead people back to life. And it would take a lot to get them to do it.

I wouldn't say "even in Eberron". Low level NPCs are a trademark of that setting. In other settings like FR this looks very different.
As for the nonmagical rulers of FR, many of them exist simply "because it fits", not because its logical. When you have Cormyr, a kingdom mostly inspired by Arthurian England a wizard as king wouldn't fit. But all those rulers always have several high level mages close to them which provide them with spellcasting. (Dragons don't have a good access to loyal high level wizards. They depend on wizards who seek them out).

Maybe I was wrong concerning the demographics of traditional D&D worlds, I'll check in the DMG.. Thats also because I prefer worlds where magic is integrated into society and not "tacked on".

 

[Dausuul]

Not sure why I'm bothering at this point, but...

- Contacts
Face it, most humans will not trust a dragon. Some might do it on a personal level, but on a political scale no one will follow a dragon unless they must do it (at least on large scale politics).

So teh dragon needs minions to represent him. But where does he get this minions? They have to be loyal and must be able to walk freely among humans (or whatever race you want to infiltrate). And as soon as his connection to the dragon gets found out he is useless.

This seems to be the core of your complaint. Without this, the dragon can have low- to mid-level spellcasters and other minions to cover deficiencies in all other areas.

However, your assumption here seems wildly off base to me. The dragon has piles of money, a brilliant mind, centuries of knowledge, extraordinary social skills, and formidable combat prowess. All of these make it a very attractive patron. And against that you're setting--what? That the dragon isn't human? So what? Lots of people aren't human in D&D. Are you claiming that not one mid-level wizard would be tempted by such an offer?

"Hey, wizard. I want you to be my personal caster. You'll attend to the arcane defenses of my lair, and you'll send messages and teleport places when I need you to. In exchange, I'll provide you with lots of gold to buy books and lab equipment. I'll give you a place to carry on your experiments into forbidden magic, and if those pesky paladins keep bothering you, I'll eat them. I'll teach you what I've learned about magic in my five-hundred-year lifespan, and I'll show you how to be a little more charming so that cute sorceress will pay attention to you. And I'll even give you a good game of chess."

(As for how it delivers the offer, it kidnaps a peasant family. It gives one of the peasants fifty gold pieces and explains that he's to deliver a message to the local spellslinger. If the peasant delivers the message and returns promptly with a written reply, the dragon will give him another fifty gold pieces and send him home unharmed. If the peasant fails to deliver the message, the dragon will eat the other family members. Given the dragon's Intimidate and Bluff scores, it should not be hard to cow the fellow into delivering the message and coming back... of course, the dragon may eat the peasants anyway.)

Moreover, the dragon is not limited to human servants by any stretch of the imagination. My own example included several erinyes that the dragon obtained by making a deal with a pit fiend. The erinyes can greater teleport at will, which solves communications issues at a stroke. Of course, easy teleportation is probably--I hope!--gone in 4E.

 

[TwoSix]

There are actually only some key issues which are important to me.

- Efficient communication
Having a large spy network requires a good communication and without magic this is not possible as it would be very slow and unreliable. Especially when you consider how fast adventurers can move or other nobles can communicate with their agents through magic having to rely on mundane communication is a big disadvantage.

We don't know how fast adventurers can move. You're still conflating 3e magic with 4e dragon. You can't do that.

- Defense
Dragons are always a prime target for adventurers which nearly always employ magic. Without having magic yourself it is very hard or even impossible to defend yourself against them.

Again, 3e thinking.

That doesn't mean the actual combat (the dragon is still quite good at that) but how to prevent the adventurers from intruding your lair.

Being good at combat is a good way to keep people out of your lair. You can eat them.

Another thing is how to keep adventurers or rivaling organizations/nobles from disrupting your spy network or other organization. Disrupting mundane communication is easy and as the dragon can't visit his agents personally it would cripple the entire network.

You disrupt their network? Blackmail/ally/eat the people leading it? What magic was the dragon using before, Protection against spies?

- Secrecy
Without magic there is no defense against diviniations (even with magic that is quite hard) as soon as the influence of the dragon gets too big some people, maybe rivaling nobles will start to gather informations about the agents of the dragon (or whoever the dragon uses to exert his influence) and from there it is easy to follow the trail (especially when you use mundane communication) back to the dragon.

Yes, because nobles are keen to go up against a dragon.

- Contacts
Face it, most humans will not trust a dragon.

Yes, but plenty will. How many did you need?

Some might do it on a personal level, but on a political scale no one will follow a dragon unless they must do it (at least on large scale politics).

Why do you have this obsession with dragons as political figures? Is this a common theme in your campaign?

So teh dragon needs minions to represent him. But where does he get this minions? They have to be loyal and must be able to walk freely among humans (or whatever race you want to infiltrate). And as soon as his connection to the dragon gets found out he is useless.

SO don't let people find out! That's what a spy network is for.

You seem to have a flaw I've seen in several world builders, where you believe the world has to be in perfect equilibrium before it can make sense. You point out all the flaws the dragon has in its plans...but what plan doesn't have flaws? It doesn't mean the dragon won't try, and it doesn't mean the dragon can't succeed for a while. It just means the dragon can be brought be down, because it has these flaws. I mean, think how many flaws exist in a human monarchial kingdom in a D&D world, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Sitara]

I don't understand why this thread is alive. Dragons are brutes, not genius plotters plotting the end of the world.

Why do they need extensive spy networks??
Why do they need rope trick?
Why oh why do they need henchmen now?

 

[Steely Dan]

Dragons are brutes, not genius plotters plotting the end of the world.

…They can be both or either.

 

[lukelightning]

I just want dragons that can rampage across the countryside, leaving nothing but destruction and terror in their wake. If I want brilliant masterminds, mighty sorcerers, or complex mazes lined with deadly traps, I will turn to humans and humanoids. If I want a flying monster with terrifying breath weapons and incredible strength with claws and teeth, I will use a dragon.

Hear hear! I am so tired of super smart uber mastermind dragons. Heck, I'd rather have unintelligent dragons... maybe cunning, but a bestial cunning, not evil genius cunning.

It seems that just about every monster in D&D gets the "evil genius upgrade." Even Kobolds, once a minor threat, have become a race of super genius trap builders with a huge credit rating (to purchase all their alchemist fire and poison and engineering goods).