Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

[Derren]

Okay, then the same goes for the dragon that chose not to learn rope trick or alarm etc.

Are you suggesting that all dragons should have an innate alarm/warning type spell-like ability?

And how does the dragon learn those? Taking levels in wizard?
Imo dragons should have the innate ability to learn/cast some spell because it simply makes sense for them as otherwise they are extremely handicapped outside of the combat.
Dragons having rituals is probably the best idea. That way dragons can cast utility spells when needed but their combat ability is not affected by spells so the people who want the dragon to just be another encounter don't need to bother with them.

 

[Steely Dan]

And how does the dragon learn those? Taking levels in wizard?

Yep.

Why should all dragons have spells that other races have to learn and scribe in a book as natural abilities?

 

[Derren]

Yep.

Why should all dragons have spells that other races have to learn and scribe in a book as natural abilities?

Because thats how D&D dragons are? Why do dragons have breath weapons and trolls have regeneration? Why can Rust Monsters corrode metal?
But as dragons are unable to really do something big in the world without the help of magic I don't see a reason to not give it to them, especially as dragons always had magic in previous editions.

I much rather have some predefined slots for spells which I can fill or not than to make every dragon a wizard just so that he can do something else than sitting in its cave and wait to be slain.

 

[Steely Dan]

Because thats how D&D dragons are?

While I don't agree with the "Because" or "Legacy" arguments, I'm at work so I can't check (all me lovely books are at home), but how much magic did 1st Ed dragons have?

 

[Steely Dan]

I much rather have some predefined slots for spells which I can fill or not than to make every dragon a wizard just so that he can do something else than sitting in its cave and wait to be slain.

I'd say that's a pretty limited view of monsters without spell-casting.

 

[Derren]

While I don't agree with the "Because" or "Legacy" arguments, I'm at work so I can't check (all me lovely books are at home), but how much magic did 1st Ed dragons have?

I think it was a %chance for them to have spells or not. (Or some types of dragons had spells and some didn't)
And its not just a "Because" argument. Most D&D dragons from the beginning were simply more than brutes sitting in a cave. They were masterminds. The BBEG of an entire campaign. And to fulfill this role they need magic (unless magic is nerfed big time, but then there is still the question of how they should do those BBEG things).

I'd say that's a pretty limited view of monsters without spell-casting.

But imo a correct one. Without magic the dragon is limited to sitting in his cave (most D&D adventures use that one) or demand tribute from a nearby poor village (cities are too heavily defended).
For everything else the dragon would need magic if it is supposed to work.

 

[AllisterH]

The BBEG of an entire campaign. And to fulfill this role they need magic (unless magic is nerfed big time, but then there is still the question of how they should do those BBEG things).

.

It should be noted that WOTC _IS_ taking a nerf bat to magic especially the high level and the campaign altering ones (scrying, teleportation being made into rituals and not spells, wizards not having as wide a selection of spells as before etc...)

As long as the dragons have polymorph self as an innate ability, then they can easily function in society.

 

[Steely Dan]

But imo a correct one. Without magic the dragon is limited to sitting in his cave (most D&D adventures use that one) or demand tribute from a nearby poor village (cities are too heavily defended).
For everything else the dragon would need magic if it is supposed to work.

It seems like you're saying that any monster without magic is limited to hanging out in a cave or whatever and waiting for adventurers to kill them…?

In my current Planescape campaign my Vile Drow Chaos Monks (no magic) certainly don't do this…

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yes but the difference is that those books always had rules in it and said "If you don't like those rules, change them".
Now the book basically says "We do not provide any rules so you have to make them up yourself".

Excuse me, what are you trying to say here? "Same Difference"? What's the difference between "changing" and "making up" in this context?

 

[D.Shaffer]

They were masterminds. The BBEG of an entire campaign. And to fulfill this role they need magic (unless magic is nerfed big time, but then there is still the question of how they should do those BBEG things).

So...anyone who's a BBEG of the entire campaign and a mastermind needs to have built in innate spell casting to be effective? Because that's what you seem to be implying here.