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Loss of Innate Spellcasting (or 'How Dragons Build Lairs')

To maybe allay some of Derren's concerns, it has been confirmed that some monsters will have Rituals:


"A new article on Dragon shows a site of exploration and possible encounter action in the new forgotten realms, Some cool info on crunch from this article:

-Trolls still regenerate (big surprise there, but hey)
-Naga's will have rituals and spells. Apparently they will be the same one's players get, not custom made for the Naga's only. So I guess there are monsters who don't have all unique abilities.
-Rituals and spells can be 'taught' to others.
-There is some kind of a friendly relationship between Naga's and Dwarves in FR, at least in the Amn region.


Quote:
The Wailing Dwarf
Realmslore
by Bruce R. Cordell
Art by Drew Baker01/14/2008Dragon Features Archive


An enormous vertical slab of rock 4,000 feet high in the western portion of the Troll Mountains in Amn is carved to resemble a dwarf. Named after the sound of the wind blowing through its hollow eyes and mouth, it marks the site of an abandoned dwarven city.

At least, that's the common wisdom. The foregoing is all most know about the Wailing Dwarf, if they've heard of it at all. Many assume the site is an abandoned dwarven city, probably haunted by opportunistic monsters and lonely dwarven ghosts. A few have even taken the time to describe away the noise made by the image: Some learned sages in Amn have it that the wailing winds result from temperature differences between air inside the caverns hidden behind the open eyes and mouth, and the air outside. When it's colder inside, air rushes in, and when it's colder outside, air rushes out, wailing and whining through the narrowed apertures of the carved dwarf's face.

The truth is a little stranger.

General Description
Consider the vast size of the vertical slab on which the dwarven image is carved -- the relief sculpture is nearly a mile tall! Dry words on a page do little to convey the surprising awe one feels upon first encountering the Wailing Dwarf in person. The great stone helm of the carven image surmounts the image like a king's crown, thick with forgotten dwarven script and pitted where ancient gemstones may once have glittered.

The empty eyes and mouth are black shadows, but the braided beard reaches a full thousand feet, where its stone tips are tucked into the image's belt. The graven image grips a fantastically large double-bladed axe in both hands, as if ready to break from the mountain, shake the residual rubble from its shoulders and beard, and give battle to another being as titanic as itself.

Next, there is the haunting sound that issues from the relief sculpture's empty lips and vacant orbs. Sometimes as quiet as a lover's whisper at midnight, other times as brash and grating as a shrieking cyclone uprooting a farm house, the wail of the dwarf is nothing if not extraordinary. Upon hearing the dwarf's exhalation, one comes away with the sense that it is hardly likely the noise could have anything other than an unexpected explanation.

Previous Exploration
Noted explorer Bryam Lancameth of Amn financed an expedition to determine the truth behind the unnatural sound of the Wailing Dwarf, though it's likely he also wished to liberate any remaining dwarven treasure yet potentially lingering in the abandoned city inside. Many know or have heard the lay Lancameth's Last Expedition, though few realize that it was within the dark byways behind the Wailing Dwarf's black eyes that Captain Lancameth and his companions, all celebrities in their own right, met their ends. Certainly Last Expedition takes many liberties with the reality of that final adventure; however, the lay does accurately sum up the expedition with the refrain:

. . . lost, past all hope of the return,
they perished, tombless and alone.

What is known for certain is that Lancameth's last expedition numbered five principles.

First was Captain Bryam Lancameth himself, famous for his many long years of notable service in Amn's merchant marine fleet. Lancameth, a human youthful for all his forty years, wielded the storied Clockwork Blade of Venom.

Next was Lady Starthorn, an elf ranger out of the Aglarond's Yuirwood. Lady Starthorn was famous both for her silvery voice and her night-black Bow of Death's Rain.

Nhair Ebendar, a halfling scoundrel from the streets of Athkatla, was never far from Lancameth, cracking wise with quips and stories. Ebendar somehow acquired the Punching Dagger of Quar-Shan, a relic whose mere possession put Ebendar in constant danger of assassins from Calimshan.

No historical account records Dog Wizard's true name. Dog Wizard is the only name he answered to, in any event, when he answered at all. Dog Wizard's greatest claim to fame was his magic implement, the Jagged Staff of Hellgate. Dog Wizard always hid his features in a hood, but some say he was a tiefling.

Though Lancameth led all their expeditions, the touchstone of the group was Matron Iremar, a priestess of Oghma. Knowledgeable in almost every circumstance and ready with healing magic when things turned rough, Matron Iremar was also a doughty warrior, and she wielded the Astral Mace of Blasting, supposedly a gift given by one of Oghma's angels directly into Iremar's pious hands.

For all their bravery, cunning, experience, and luck, all five famous heroes fell within the bleak, wind-washed caverns behind the Wailing Dwarf. Regardless of whether Lancameth's hope concerning dwarven treasures was true or merely optimism, it is certain at the very least that the dangerous ruins behind the graven image contain the powerful magic relics each expeditioneer carried with them to their ends.

Behind the Face
The presumption that opportunistic monsters lair within the cavities behind the sculpted slab are accurate. Lightless shafts shelter spiders, fungi, oozing slimes, and even the spirits of mourning dwarves.

However, in more recent times, an unusually clever tribe of trolls partly colonized the hollow mountain. They did so only in part because they found the access into the heart of the ruined city beyond the First Antechamber contested by immortal guardians set there to keep secret the Wailing Dwarf's windy heart.

After a running conflict that lasted decades, the trolls were mostly wiped out, though pockets still persist in hidden corners of the ruined city past the First Antechamber. Also, the immortal guardians captured a few alive and set them up in the First Antechamber as a warning to the future.

Created expressly by secret makers, the immortal guardians in the Wailing Dwarf take the form of guardian nagas. All nagas are fascinated by knowledge, and most eventually assemble a formidable understanding of rituals and arcane spells, as well as collect powerful magic items. The guardians in the Wailing Dwarf (whose total number is not known) are obsessed with the continued acquisition of magical knowledge and the final resting place (or current wielders) of storied magic items, legacy items, and relics.

Though the guardian nagas in the Wailing Dwarf devote themselves fiercely to their appointed task, they also thirst for new knowledge and are not quick to attack intruders. In fact, they may offer to spare intruders' lives if the intruders can teach them a new ritual or spell, or if they give up a magic item. A naga is compelled by its very nature to guard its appointed secret or object with its life, and thus it never negotiates away access to the windy heart of the abandoned dwarven city. Still, one might be willing to allow intruders to turn back with their lives -- especially if they can offer something worthwhile for its mercy.

Gaining Entry
At first glance, those seeking entry are faced with a vertical climb up the flatiron slab upon which the Wailing Dwarf is carved. However, investigation higher up the mountainous shoulder behind the east-looking side of the dwarf reveals rough but navigable terrain, including a natural rock shelf 5 feet in width that curls around across the slab's front, through the stony braids of the Wailing Dwarf's beard, to the open cavity of its vacuous mouth.

Here explorers face their first potential danger. Sometimes, an erratic howling wind bursts from the mouth (and both eyes) of the stony façade. When this happens, all objects and creatures not staked into the stone are either sucked in or blown out. Those sucked in tumble roughly into the First Antechamber, where they fall prone and are dazed. Those blown out are flung off the carved slab face into open air, where they face a fall of nearly 4,000 feet to the rocky gorge floor below.

Those lucky enough to avoid a wind surge or who take precautions against the howling winds find a wide circular tunnel beyond that leads, after a hundred feet or so, to the First Antechamber.

First Antechamber
Behind the façade of the Wailing Dwarf and past the long throat is the wide and high First Antechamber. Here the shackled bodies of four regenerating trolls are strapped across walls and ceilings. Completely insane from their years-long captivity, they now serve both as a warning to would-be interlopers, as well as self-renewing hors d'oeuvres for the guardian naga that has taken up her position here.

The guardian naga in the First Antechamber deals newcomers who enter the chamber, whether troll, adventurer, or dwarf claiming to be a long-lost heir of the city that lies beyond, as described above under Behind the Face.

Abandoned Dwarven City
Beyond the First Antechamber is another tunnel, which opens onto a great rift at the mountain's heart, from which the winds emerge or sometimes plunge. The ruined dwarven city is carved into the stone of both sides of a great rift, cliff-dwelling style. Countless bridges, suspended roads, and other stone paths provide access back and forth between the two sides, though most of these stone spans are untrustworthy at best in their neglected antiquity.

Thousands of empty chambers lie within the abandoned city, whose name is one more secret hoarded by the guardian nagas who patrol the city's upper edges. Mournful dwarven ghosts, lurking trolls, patrolling guardian nagas, the powerful items once wielded by Lancameth and his fallen band, and other secrets are here kept, not least of which is the reason for the near constant inhalation and outrush of air from somewhere deeper. . . .

About the Author

Bruce Cordell is a D&D designer, but during his twelve years in the game industry, he has dabbled in miniatures, board games, collectible card games, d20 games, and more. Bruce has over a sixty listed credits to his name, including the Expanded Psionics Handbook, Libris Mortis, and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. His body of work also includes three published Forgotten Realms novels (Lady of Poison, Darkvision, and Stardeep), with more on the way."
 

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Darren I am going to spell this out quickly:

Communication with others - All ready pointed out that its a moot point because of the plethora of ways all ready detailed here on how to contact and deal with people with out magic. Not to mention that the Dragon could have a mildly magically ally who does the communication.

Alarm spell - 1st level spell that shows up with detect magic and can be dispelled or avoided. Only lasts 2 hours per level and requires the dragon to be able to recast it EVERY DAY. Dragons don't have permanancy ieing around.

Silent Image - All ready defeated requires concentration and LINE OF SIGHT.

Invaisibility/Thief - Has blindsight 60ft thief can't get close enough to use it. As for poison last I checked Dragons have rediculous fort saves.

Lets get to the meat about wizards travelling:

Wizards have other options but they do not tend to use them. In 3.5 Invisibility doesn't last that long, Fly lasts just as long. So those what 20 minutes of invisible flight are realy quite usefull.

archers vs a dragon - An archer has to have LoS which easily defeated even in the air. The PC's once again can only fly for 20 minutes tops. The dragon flies at a minimum of 100ft per round while a PC does 60. A dragon moving double will be out of the range of a standard bow in 2 rounds atleast. Not including cover. Again your archer would have to deal incredible amounts of damage in a VERY short period. While possible it is very unlikely that the dragon will sustain enough to die. Dragons have hundreds of hp and rediculous AC. While it may be possible for someone to sufficiently damage them in the time aloted it is most unlikely.

Bottomline your counter arguements are not proving that Dragons are any more susceptable to death by tactics then they are in 3E or 3.5E. In fact I would go so far to say that its easier to take out dragons in 3E or 3.5E using these tactics because of the PC rules in those versions.

Give us an arguement that proves beyond a shodow of a doubt that the lack of spells in 4th for dragons out of the box makes them lose anything beyond having to use a iittle elbow grease and persusion.

P.S. I am sure a dragon is more then capable of putting a plug in a door and resting a rock on top before he goes to sleep at night. I personally like to make sure my doors are locked and my phones are charging and my lights are off before I go to bed. I even brush my teeth and wash. I bet it takes me longer to do that.

To be honest Darren I am not trying to be antagonistic with you but your resolute mannerism about how dragons lose all credibility because they lose magic is just silly. The idea also that a BBEG needs magic or levels o caster classes is also silly. That would be a HUGE problem with the game (meaning 4E as 3E had a magic to balance magic approach). The problem here that everyone seems to be having with your ideology is that you are applying a 3E mindset to something that is VERY far removed from 3E by all accounts. The core of 4E the soul and heart of it remains roughly the same but the application of it seems to have taken a change. I for one am very ready for it.
 
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And I will answer really quick

- Communication. All forms of communications presented here are not good enough when adventurers who can fly or teleport show up and also limit the size of the dragons operation to the area around its lair. They work, but not very well.

- Alarm spell
2 hours per level is most of the time enough for the night. Recasting it every day is easy for the dragon when it has spellcasting

- Silent Image. Yes. Thats where alarm spells are handy to know when and where to place this spell.

- Thief
Buffing and setting up traps etc. 61 ft. away from teh dragon is enough to ensure victory

- Wizard
Overland Fly, Phantom Steed or when it gets rough Dimension Door to escape from danger

- Archers
Having a Line of Sight to a flying target is not that hard to get. The damage comes from the masses of archers (20 automatically hits, so AC is not an issue). Even when not killed, the dragon which is unable to heal itself now has to fear to be hunted down and killed in its weakened state (unlike the high level NPCs which can simply heal up within a day unless killed)

- Plug
I did not assume that the dragon lair has doors made specifically made for it. If not then the dragon has to make sure that there is no hole in those plugs. if there is the dragon has now given the adventurers free cover from its melee attacks while they can attack him with arrows and spells while he can only fight back with its fire breat (which the heroes are likely protected against).

And imo dragons without magic much of their credibly as movers and shakers of the world when they do not have access to magic because the organizations they are competing against do have it and magic is a big advantage. it starts from security (its very hard to stop a magical party with nonmagical means) to communications and transporting (the contact with its agents is confined to a small area around the lair, slow and unreliable while adventurers and NPCs can use magic and travel spells) and spying (The enemies can simply scry the dragon which it likely is not able to block. The dragon on the other hand can't do it).

In 4E this might change but we already know that there will be rituals for many of those things. When the dragon can't cast those rituals we have the same situation as teh one I described above with 3.5Ed terms.

Sure, it can be solved by magic using minions, but to me a real minion is someone who has no real ability of his own and is only really useful when directed by a mastermind. But in this case those minions are the only thing which keep the whole operation alive. Remove the dragon and it wouldn't make a difference assuming a higher level minion takes his place.
 
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I'm a little confused what exactly the goal here is. Is it to:
1) Present a reasonable way for a Dragon to commit intrigue and otherwise manipulate the destinies of humanoid kingdoms or
2) Be undefeatable by adventurers?

Because these are very different goals. Everything that has been mentioned so far stymies the vast armies of humankind and provides a fair measure of protection. It takes some fairly focused attention from human(oid) champions to root out the serpent that's behind all of it, let alone throw off the phenomenal bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy checks the wyrm can make.

Sure, adventurers can become aware of a dragon that communicates in a mundane fashion. They can then approach the dragon who, if they are anything other than Adventurers, bully them, intimidate them, squash them flat, or fry them crispy.

On a similar note, consider trying this game from the other side, Derren. Come up with the spell list of an Adult Red dragon (200 years old, casts as a 7th level sorceror, I believe?) that doesn't fall into the exact same problems.

These are plot hooks, not flaws, and the dragon manages what it does far better than an equivalent human (non wizard) mastermind.

Or are we just arguing that wizards are broken? :D
Edit: I guess it just feels to me that the ground rules for this argument are that the Dragon, to be a mover and shaker, must be:
Invincible, Omnicognizant, Extraordinarily subtle, Able to hold (solo!) its own against the amassed forces of several kingdoms and fairly large numbers of humanoid champions, and Unable to positively interact with anyone useful.
These exact same strictures kill a dragon with spellcasting dead, so I must be missing something.
 
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Derren said:
In 4E this might change but we already know that there will be rituals for many of those things. When the dragon can't cast those rituals we have the same situation as teh one I described above with 3.5Ed terms.

Sure, it can be solved by magic using minions, but to me a real minion is someone who has no real ability of his own and is only really useful when directed by a mastermind.

This is beyond absurd. Are you claiming Darth Vader had no real ability of his own? Or the Witch-King? How about Lucius Malfoy or Wormtongue?

A minion who has no real ability of his own isn't a minion, he's an Imperial Stormtrooper. Minions always have abilities of their own. That's what makes them useful to the mastermind. Some of them are combat brutes (Darth Vader). Others are spellcasters (the Witch-King). Still others are smooth-tongued liars (Wormtongue).

Derren said:
But in this case those minions are the only thing which keep the whole operation alive. Remove the dragon and it wouldn't make a difference assuming a higher level minion takes his place.

Not even remotely true. The dragon is the genius behind the organization, the brains of the outfit. Remove the dragon and there is no one fit to replace it. Sure, one of the minions will step up and try his best (actually they'll all probably try to step up, leading to a free-for-all as the pretenders to the throne murder one another), but he lacks the dragon's experience, its vast intelligence, and its equally vast array of Knowledges and social skills. He won't be able to run the show the way the dragon could.
 
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Derren said:
And I will answer really quick

- Communication. All forms of communications presented here are not good enough when adventurers who can fly or teleport show up and also limit the size of the dragons operation to the area around its lair. They work, but not very well.

Actually you assume that adventurers know were the dragon is right away and do not do anything to ti the dragon off. This is typically FAR from the truth. Adventurers even in 3e CAN NOT teleport into a dragons lair. They need to know were it is and have a good working knowledge of the area they are teleporting into. Any form of transport into a dragons lair is going to require atleast 1 days travel. In which a dragon can easily receive warning from his spies and followers. Again your points are making MANY assumptions and completely inaccurate use of abilities alloted to PCs.

- Alarm spell
2 hours per level is most of the time enough for the night. Recasting it every day is easy for the dragon when it has spellcasting

- Silent Image. Yes. Thats where alarm spells are handy to know when and where to place this spell.

These two spells really are not practical. Were does the dragon waste his alarm spell? were does the dragon hide while being in line of sight and concentrating on a silent image? This is completely impractical in all ways. Not to mention a complete waste of time for a dragon who has much better options with out worrying about these pathetic parlor tricks.

Example 1 cavern the PC's have to pass through which he simple collapses on them using his strength or breath weapon is a hundred times more effective then the sillent image. Again non-magical defeats magical in this instance in every way.

- Thief
Buffing and setting up traps etc. 61 ft. away from teh dragon is enough to ensure victory
Again even buffed how is a thief a match for a dragon in melee? Are you assuming 3E buffs and assuming they work in 4E. Again your arguements are widely speculative and full of wholes. There is no place to stop and buff in a 120' diameter cavern. The dragon can even sleep in a much smaller chamber.

- Wizard
Overland Fly, Phantom Steed or when it gets rough Dimension Door to escape from danger

I don't see an invisible undectable 10th level wizard here I see lunch for a dragon. Dimensional door only gets one so far and a dragon fiies rediculously fast. Not to mention the dragon just needs to ambush the wizard along his path. Not to hard for anyone to do really. The wizard is much better off just using normal means and blending in with the common folk.

- Archers
Having a Line of Sight to a flying target is not that hard to get. The damage comes from the masses of archers (20 automatically hits, so AC is not an issue). Even when not killed, the dragon which is unable to heal itself now has to fear to be hunted down and killed in its weakened state (unlike the high level NPCs which can simply heal up within a day unless killed)

200 archers firing with a required 20 to hit will only hit 10 times for 1d8 per hit even with magic and buffed to the nines lets say that does 20 damage per hit (which it won't) its only 200 damage and a dragon has 500-1000 hit points. It takes only one breath weapon too take down a rediculous amount of archers not to mention once close enough which takes 1 round they can be effected by fear which may reduce the enitre 200 archers into nothing thus defeating the entire plan in one round.

- Plug
I did not assume that the dragon lair has doors made specifically made for it. If not then the dragon has to make sure that there is no hole in those plugs. if there is the dragon has now given the adventurers free cover from its melee attacks while they can attack him with arrows and spells while he can only fight back with its fire breat (which the heroes are likely protected against).

since when are air holes murder holes? All a dragon has to do is have his air holes angled which is not that difficult and bam done. not to mention all he has to do is have something 1 ft in front of his air holes and no pc can see or fire anything into the room. If you are going to assume things try playing devil advocate with yourself and realize that when you post things that are obvious it doesn't help our discussion progress but keeps us on this silly circular arguement.

And imo dragons without magic much of their credibly as movers and shakers of the world when they do not have access to magic because the organizations they are competing against do have it and magic is a big advantage. it starts from security (its very hard to stop a magical party with nonmagical means) to communications and transporting (the contact with its agents is confined to a small area around the lair, slow and unreliable while adventurers and NPCs can use magic and travel spells) and spying (The enemies can simply scry the dragon which it likely is not able to block. The dragon on the other hand can't do it).

Organizations do not all ways seek to destroy dragons, but in actually would seek to use them for thier benefit. this can be beneficial to the dragons themselves as they gain powerful allies. This again goes back to the understanding that Dragons are a force to be reckoned with. A CR20 dragon stands an incredibly good chance of slaughtering any single combatant 20th level or lower, and as those level lower the amount of combatants it can slaughter increases exponentially. You are stuck thinking of magic as a means to an end. If magic was the only means to an end then armies would be useless.

In 4E this might change but we already know that there will be rituals for many of those things. When the dragon can't cast those rituals we have the same situation as teh one I described above with 3.5Ed terms.

No one has said dragons can not use rituals. No one has said dragons can not cast spells. All that was stated is that base dragons no longer include casting levels.

Sure, it can be solved by magic using minions, but to me a real minion is someone who has no real ability of his own and is only really useful when directed by a mastermind. But in this case those minions are the only thing which keep the whole operation alive. Remove the dragon and it wouldn't make a difference assuming a higher level minion takes his place.


This is not true at all. A smart Mastermind compartmentalizes. The trick to staying in power is to keep your underlings in the dark. Give your underlings the abiity to do everything and they will betray you. This is easily avoided, and the setup for it is not that hard at all. This is were you are having difficulty. Your lack of understanding on how social structure and intrigue work is were your arguements fail to prove to have merit.

All powerful minions are kept at arms length and scrutinized. Its good to have a dozen or so equally powerful minions this allows you to keep them seperate and at each others throats. The trick is keeping those minions power in balance. If one starts to out strip the others he/she must be replaced or taken out of that level and moved somewere that removes his powerbase and isolates him/her to remove the ability to take over.
 
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Derren said:
Somehow I fail to see how you are able to stuff that many soldiers in such a small space so that everyone is affected by frightful presence. So, not 95% of all soldiers would flee, 5% would maybe. The rest will fire one or two salvos at the dragon and wound it soo much that the high level NPCs of the city can finish it off if the dragon doesn't flee.

No, sorry, doesn't work that way. Your little 1-3rd level guys who are the vast bulk of the city guards have no possibility of making the save against it's frightful presence if we are talking an Old Red dragon. They have to roll a natural 20 to save, and that's only because D&D has that little rules quirk. 1 out of 20 = 5%, so 5% of any of the militia forces will stay and fight. 95% will flee. That's not a number someone is pulling out of their pants in casual conversation.

Small space? An Old dragon's frightful presence is radius of 240'. That is a globe 480' across. Do you have any idea how big an area that is? That's quite a bit bigger than a football field is long. Archers can be scattered all over the city and when it flies over in that initial pass using it's overland flight hustle speed of 60 mph, it's going to Frightful Presense all of them in one looping pass over the city. Given that he's also going to throw the vast majority of the city into a blind panic as well (including all those animals), you're going to see a major riot start.

Sorry, I still don't buy that you're going to hand +1 arrows to every Tom, Dick and Harry in the militia or have someone casting Magic Weapon, Greater at the drop of a hat. The latter would work if you had a few hours worth of warning that the dragon was going to attack, but when's the last time that ever happened?
 

It's easier to add than to take away, generally.

I also don't see why a dragon would waste a spell when it can do this:

"On the dragon’s turn, the first thing it does is burst out in an inferno of flame, searing every PC within 25 feet—a free action. Then, with a standard action, it slashes out at the fighter and the cleric with its two front claws (even though they’re both 20 feet away). As another free action, it uses its tail to slap the rogue, who was trying to sneak up behind it, and pushes her back 10 feet. It’s getting angry at the wizard, so it uses a special ability to take another standard action: it spits a ball of fire at the wizard, setting him on fire. It has a move action left, which it uses to fly into a better position for its breath weapon. That ends the dragon’s turn."

But no, give the dragon access to Fireball spell instead.
 


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