LOTR from a gamer's perspective

[RainOfSteel]

We had an interesting conversation over the weekend about LOTR if you were running it as a RPG. This is not system-based, like talking about MERP or D&D or GURPS, but rather a discussion about how fiction works differently from a RPG.

The obvious solution was to fly the ring into Mordor on the backs of giant eagles. Quicker, faster, less dangerous.

What do you think?

Nah.

Even at the battle before the Black Gate, none of the eagles actually ventured into Morder, not even for scouting purposes.

Not until the shadow of Suaron passed into the darkness were the eagles willing to fly there.

I don't think it had anything to do with the Ringwraiths or whether or not they were, or were not, in Mordor.

"One does not simply walk into Mordor," also paraphrases as, "One does not simply fly into Mordor."

Further, I doubt the eagles were at anyone's beck and call. They are proud and undoubtedly do not consider themselves beats of burden. The very short flight for Gandalf and the flights of Frodo and Sam were likely very rare circumstances.

It may have been that Gandalf had never considered that it was possible at all until he was taken off of Orthanc.

I can see Gwaihir now, setting Gandalf done somewhere, giving the wizard a good ribbing for getting caught.

Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel could have gotten quite a bit of intelligence over the centuries if simply flying in were possible. Troop movements could be reported on a regular basis. Gandalf and Aragorn could have taken scouting excursions into the region. Etc., etc., ad infinitum.

Since they don't appear to have been using this method as far as we know, we can conclude it wasn't a readily available resource that could be tapped at will or even occasionally.

Otherwise Tolkein's writing circle, the Inklings, including C.S. Lewis, probably would have pointed it out and said, hey, what about the eagles! Just like is being done now.

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Oh yes, I just remembered, Gandalf says that the enemy commands many creatures, including birds. Not necessarily fell beasts, but ordinary birds turned to evil.

Even a giant eagle will be taken out by an exceptionally large flock of crows or other similar birds.

Maintaining ten or twenty thousand crows as border watchers and massed guards would be child's play for Sauron, ever ready along Mordor's peaks to mass in huge clouds to defeat an eagle intrusion. Some would always be aloft, looking for winged spies.

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This whole "eagles take the ring or ringbearer into Mordor" hypothesis makes little to no sense when viewed in the above light.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Meanwhile, you haven't dealt with Saruman of Many Colors (obviously an Initiate of the Seven-Colored Veil, one of the most broken powerful wizard PrCs). He moves in on his own wyvern beastie, obliterates Gandalf the Gray (your level 5 wizard with a staff of Pyrotechnics), and Elrond (who has about the same power level as Gandalf), and takes the ring for himself.

Gandalf may not have been the powerhouse Sauron was, having a portfolio of Wisdom instead of Fire, but he was a lesser god, a Maia, just like Sauron and Saruman.

Once Gandalf was given a new body by the Valar after the battle with the Balrog, he was most certainly more powerful than Saruman.

How do you think he broke Saruman's staff so easily? It wasn't because Saruman was broken, it was because Gandalf had been raised up.

What, you say? Why didn't he attack Sauron or the Nazgul*? The last time Vala and Maia battled Vala and Maia, a large sub-continent size chunk of land sank into the sea. The time before that, the existing world-continent was broken in half. The Valar were trying to avoid a repeat, and the wizards were under orders to avoid it. Exactly where the line was, nobody knew, but they were trying to avoid further discovery.

*Gandalf almost went head to head with the Witch King in tRotK, if not for Pippin yanking him away to save Faramir, it probably would have happened. Gandalf didn't seem worried about the outcome, either. It was probably fated, just so the confrontation didn't happen.

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I mean, one time someone asked me, "Who would win, Gandalf or Elmenster?" I laughed. Think about it, and you will too.

Elminster and Gandalf fighting?

Ridiculous.

If, improbably, they would even meet, they'd both take out their pipes and start blowing smoke-shapes and talk about life, the universe, and everything. Elminster would pick up fireworks knowledge, and Gandalf would probably pick up on gardening so he could grow his own pipe weed, of which he was quite fond.

Oh, but in any event, I put my money on a lesser god, even one with a portfolio of Wisdom, vs. a tricked-out DMNPC.

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Passages in LotR regarding the power of the Nine are highly contradictory. The incident at Amon Sul is hard to reconcile with the fact that Gandalf (who appears substantially more powerful than Aragorn) could barely face the Witch-King, let alone the massed Nine.

Not really. At Amon Sul Frodo called upon Varda. He got an answer. 00 on a role for Divine Intervention. I'm not surprised the Ringwraigths were knocked back on their heels, it was the equivalent of being severely sight-blinded with hallowed power. They were unavoidably stunned (undead or not), and probably suffered from further deleterious effects beyond that.

I would not be surprised if it took them days to recover.

Too bad the movie skipped that little bit.

The Ringwraiths were only beginning to come into their power in tFotR.

Later on in tTT and tRotK, they were far more fearsome.

 

[molonel]

Yeah, it's amusing, unless you are the DM! I generally try to say 'yes' in my games, and then think of ways to make it a challenge.

Oh, I've BEEN the DM in that situation. Sitting there, blinking audibly.

"Well?" they ask sweetly. "Wouldn't that work?"

And you crumple the papers in your fist from that encounter you spent so long perfecting for a moment.

Then you smooth out the paper, and remember how you can blindside them with the same encounter from another place.

"Of course," I say. "I assumed that's what you were going to do in the first place."

"One does not simply walk into Mordor," also paraphrases as, "One does not simply fly into Mordor."

It does?

Oh right, right! It completely does.

They are exactly the same.

Except for being totally different.

Further, I doubt the eagles were at anyone's beck and call. They are proud and undoubtedly do not consider themselves beats of burden. The very short flight for Gandalf and the flights of Frodo and Sam were likely very rare circumstances.

So they'll pick up some scruffy dwarves, and pluck Gandalf from a tower, and swoop straight into Mordor to pick up Sam and Frodo, but basically serve as shuttle service when required, but they are too proud, noble and regal to save the world?

This whole "eagles take the ring or ringbearer into Mordor" hypothesis makes little to no sense when viewed in the above light.

Methinks you are being a tad optimistic in your estimation of your own argument.

 

[Fifth Element]

Gandalf the Gray (your level 5 wizard with a staff of Pyrotechnics)

Ugh. Let's not bring that up again. It's a relic from an earlier age.

 

[Aus_Snow]

But Gandalf's far more likely to be a Paladin.
















what?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Ugh. Let's not bring that up again. It's a relic from an earlier age.

Doesn't make it any less valid.

 

[Fifth Element]

Elminster and Gandalf fighting?

Ridiculous.

Agreed. It's not really fair to pit a pale imitation against the original, in any situation.

 

[RainOfSteel]

"One does not simply walk into Mordor," also paraphrases as, "One does not simply fly into Mordor."

It does?

Oh right, right! It completely does.

They are exactly the same.

Except for being totally different.

The statement is meant to indicate that getting into Mordor by any method is difficult, walking, flying, or otherwise. That is why the paraphrase is correct.

Eagles flying into Mordor would have been sheer folly.

 

[Slife]

Wait a second... didn't Sauron make sure there was a gigantic cloud of soot over Mordor coming from Mount Doom? Seems like it would be hard to fly in. Maybe that's why he has it?

Gandalf may not have been the powerhouse Sauron was, having a portfolio of Wisdom instead of Fire, but he was a lesser god, a Maia, just like Sauron and Saruman.

Once Gandalf was given a new body by the Valar after the battle with the Balrog, he was most certainly more powerful than Saruman.

How do you think he broke Saruman's staff so easily? It wasn't because Saruman was broken, it was because Gandalf had been raised up.

The first time Gandalf fought Saruman, he got creamed. In your hypothetical scenerio, that would be the first time Gandalf fought Saruman, and there's no major difference between the situations.

Too bad Gandalf hasn't been raised up yet. As he hasn't battled with the balrog. That's exactly why I said Gandalf the Gray and not Gandalf the White.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Once Gandalf was given a new body by the Valar after the battle with the Balrog, he was most certainly more powerful than Saruman.

How do you think he broke Saruman's staff so easily? It wasn't because Saruman was broken, it was because Gandalf had been raised up.

So, he dies, the DM auto-ressurects him, then applies some kind of Power Up Template.

What a bunch of munchkins.

I think the DM just wasn't very good. He couldn't stick to his guns at all. He stabs Frodo with a Dagger of Wraith Making, then keeps giving the hobbit more and more saves to resist. What, do hobbits have a save bonus vs Effects Related to Sauron?

He was probably embarrased as heck when Frodo finally failed his save at the finale. Had to have his little DMPC show up and fall into the lava.