LOTR from a gamer's perspective

[Celebrim]

1) Sauron has many times as many resources as the good guys.
2) Sauron thinks like an adventurer.
3) Flying the ring into Morder on the back of eagles with Gandalf at the head would be the sort of thing that Sauron would expect the good guys to do. He's already planned for it. The exact nature of his plan for it might not be apparant, but he's definately got a plan for it. Maybe he's holding back a flight of dragons in reserve. (We know that Gandalf organizes the expedition in 'The Hobbit' specifically to keep Smaug from allying with Sauron.) Maybe he's got more of those fell beasts than you think he does. Maybe he's invented anti-aircraft guns. In any event, you try the whole Eagle thing and you'll find out just how well prepared a demigod of technology with an 30 Intelligence can be for the obvious plan. According to Gandalf (a demigod of wisdom), the only plan that could work was one that was so foolish (seeming) that Sauron would never considered it a possiblity.
4) Anyone that tried to do the Eagle plan would be hit by a second double whammy. Anyone that tried to destroy the ring through might, and you can hardly get more vain glorious than flying into Mordor arstride an armada of giant eagles, would find that the very act of choosing this plan - the very arrogance of it - made one more succeptable to the influence of the ring. The reason that the hobbit plan worked wasn't just that it was so crazy that Sauron couldn't imagine it, it was that it was so humble that Sauron couldn't imagine it and so humble that the actors in it could suppress the power of the ring to tempt them. There is simply no way that anyone flying in on the back of an eagle, exalting in the power of that activity, could resist the temptation of the ring to claim its power for thier own and challenge the dark lord. Not Frodo, not even Sam, and certainly not anyone with greater pride that would have the power to thwart Sauron's counter-plan.
5) There is an even further problem. Sauron would see the Eagles coming for hundreds of miles. He's scanning that way. He's awaiting such an attack. As soon as Sauron pins down the rings exact location, its over, because as soon as Sauron knows where to exert his will he's going to bend his will toward the ring. What most readers don't get is that Sauron is the rightful owner of the ring. If Sauron _asks_ for the ring, no mortal - not even Aragorn - is going to be able to resist giving it to him. It's just that simple. And those immortals that could resist - Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, for example - could only resist by the excercise of power, and in doing so would fall and you'd have a new Dark Lord.

It won't work. The way in the story is the ONLY way that would have worked. Every other path will - according to the testimony of the story - fail.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Anybody thinking about how many resources Sauron has is missing the point of this thread:

The DM always has exactly as many monsters as he needs, and exactly the right type.

Only a handful of fell beasts?! Piffle. Sauron has a FLEET OF RED DRAGONS, an ARMY OF TERRASQUES, and a spy network of GHOSTS, and MIND FLAYERS.

And all of Mordor is probably blocked against teleportation and scrying.

Think big, people!

 

[ruleslawyer]

Celebrim,

Thank you for articulating that. My sentiments exactly.

think the funniest thing, though, is when you come up with a solution the DM didn't anticipate, and everyone sees it in his or her face, and then they have to scramble to explain why it can't work.

If you are referring to LotR here, I think you've really missed the point of the entire narrative around the journey to Mordor, which is that *open action will not work, except as a distraction and even then only under a very specific set of circumstances.*

Flying into Mordor would have been impossible because Sauron would have already anticipated it. After the Eagles intervened in the Battle of Five Armies, the Dark Lord would have been aware that Eagles flying into Mordor meant bad news. If his arm were long enough to bring snow and ice down from the North to trouble the Fellowship in the Misty Mountains (see "The Ring Goes South"), then he certainly would have spotted the Eagles from far off. The "using harmless scouts" approach also probably wouldn't have worked because Sauron wouldn't have been so concerned about managing resources as not to send a response to each and every scouting eagle appearing on the borders of Mordor.

As to why walking into Mordor was less dangerous: Well, for one thing, hiding is a lot easier when you're nine (or two) folk keeping to dark mountain ways than when you're a flight of 75-foot-wingspan birds. Also, as others have said, it was positively devious in its chanciness. "Sen[ding] the Ring into Mordor in the hands of a witless halfling" was something that Denethor found utterly foolish; no doubt his enemy in the Dark Tower would have thought the same.

 

[Hussar]

Hrm, my players would have handed the ring to Tom Bombadil and then gone off to kill stuff and take their treasure.

Problem solved.

 

[iwatt]

Finally, there isn't really a route by which the Eagles could enter Mordor without, as iwatt pithily replied earlier, facing a number of catapults.

Heh. I was referncing on of those hilariou flash comics in which Boromir comes up with a plan to build a giant catapult to fire the ring into the volcano. I guess Hong is the only one who gets that reference.

 

[shilsen]

Hrm, my players would have handed the ring to Tom Bombadil and then gone off to kill stuff and take their treasure.

Problem solved.

I presume you don't remember that they discuss precisely this issue during the Council of Elrond and reject it, because Bombadil is both an unreliable guardian, and because Sauron will simply destroy the lands of Middle-Earth until only Bombadil is left, and then defeat and take the Ring. The only option, the Council concludes, is to destroy the Ring.

And the whole thing with the Eagles is covered during the Council when they are discussing why someone like Glorfindel is not accompanying the Fellowship. Gandalf points out that even he would not be able to open a path to the Fire, and entering Mordor openly in any way (which, though he doesn't mention it, riding in on the back of an eagle would be) would lead to the taking of the Ring. The only option is subterfuge.

 

[Numion]

As a side point, I always thought it was ridiculous that the Nazgul were "disguised as riders in black". That's not much of a disguise if you ask me. One look and you know something's amiss.

 

[molonel]

The statement is meant to indicate that getting into Mordor by any method is difficult, walking, flying, or otherwise. That is why the paraphrase is correct. Eagles flying into Mordor would have been sheer folly.

It won't work. The way in the story is the ONLY way that would have worked. Every other path will - according to the testimony of the story - fail.

If you are referring to LotR here, I think you've really missed the point of the entire narrative around the journey to Mordor, which is that *open action will not work, except as a distraction and even then only under a very specific set of circumstances.* Flying into Mordor would have been impossible because Sauron would have already anticipated it. After the Eagles intervened in the Battle of Five Armies, the Dark Lord would have been aware that Eagles flying into Mordor meant bad news. If his arm were long enough to bring snow and ice down from the North to trouble the Fellowship in the Misty Mountains (see "The Ring Goes South"), then he certainly would have spotted the Eagles from far off. The "using harmless scouts" approach also probably wouldn't have worked because Sauron wouldn't have been so concerned about managing resources as not to send a response to each and every scouting eagle appearing on the borders of Mordor. As to why walking into Mordor was less dangerous: Well, for one thing, hiding is a lot easier when you're nine (or two) folk keeping to dark mountain ways than when you're a flight of 75-foot-wingspan birds. Also, as others have said, it was positively devious in its chanciness. "Sen[ding] the Ring into Mordor in the hands of a witless halfling" was something that Denethor found utterly foolish; no doubt his enemy in the Dark Tower would have thought the same.

Okay, guys, listen. There is something you need to understand.

It's a fantasy story. So talking about what would have been impossible is ridiculous. If Señor Tolkien had declared that the only way to get the ring into Mordor would be to have the Hobbits strip naked, cover themselves with purple body paint and hop through the gates of Mordor on pogo sticks while farting and humming the National Anthem, then that's how it would have worked.

Tolkien himself admitted that there were problems in his stories, and everything didn't necessarily jive. The reason we read his work is in spite of its flaws. Not because it was perfect.

If he can admit that, then so can you.

 

[shilsen]

Okay, guys, listen. There is something you need to understand.

It's a fantasy story. So talking about what would have been impossible is ridiculous. If Señor Tolkien had declared that the only way to get the ring into Mordor would be to have the Hobbits strip naked, cover themselves with purple body paint and hop through the gates of Mordor on pogo sticks while farting and humming the National Anthem, then that's how it would have worked.

Tolkien himself admitted that there were problems in his stories, and everything didn't necessarily jive. The reason we read his work is in spite of its flaws. Not because it was perfect.

If he can admit that, then so can you.

If discussing what would have been impossible is ridiculous, it's hardly arguable that it's worth discussing what would have been possible, right?

And who cares what an author thinks about their own works anyway?

 

[Numion]

the only way to get the ring into Mordor would be to have the Hobbits strip naked, cover themselves with purple body paint and hop through the gates of Mordor on pogo sticks while farting and humming the National Anthem, then that's how it would have worked.

I don't know man, the eagle idea sounded a lot better than this. What's the function of the pogo sticks? Isn't mordor filled with uneven terrain and sinkholes? Not a good look for pogos. I won't even get into the purple paint and the farting*


But I will say that the Nazguls' keenest sense in daylight was smell .. ohmigod