Pathfinder 2E Low-level Wizards in PF2 - are they still underpowered?

[CapnZapp]

I know, off topic.

No, the "huh" probably means "what are you talking about - the Champion weak?"

 

[CapnZapp]

In their niches of fighting nasty evil things and protecting and healing allies they seem quite potent. They don't seem like they will be good generalized damage dealers. I'm fine with that.

Not to mention they being good at wearing armor and shield. Having party members whose health doesn't melt away to lame attacks is definitely a plus in this edition.

 

[Fanaelialae]

So the fighter, who was previously probably going to hit and might crit... is now probably going to hit, and might crit. And the enemy might just make their saving throw, in which case the spell does nothing.

That's not useful. That's a borderline trap option.

The fighter, who previously had a 65% to hit, now has a 95% chance to hit. That's an almost 50% improvement to his hit chance.

The fighter, who previously had a 15% chance to crit, now has a 45% chance to crit. That's triple his normal crit chance.

Not only that, but we're discussing the best fighting class in PF2. If we look at a different class, the improvement will be even pronounced. For example, any other fighting class would most likely see a sevenfold improvement in crit chance at level 1.

If those numbers seem like small potatoes to you, I'd remind you that this isn't PF1. PF2 bonuses are heavily bounded. An effective +6 to hit is basically unheard of outside abilities that cause unconsciousness, of which there aren't many. Sleep is the only one of those I've found that is available at 1st level.

Additionally, Sleep in 3.x and PF1 also allowed a save to negate. Did you consider those versions to be "borderline trap options" as well?

 

[RSIxidor]

The Palad ... err ... Champion is probably the weakest class in the combined history of D&D and Pathfinder, but we're talking about the Wizard being underpowered. That's pretty hilarious.

I feel like we read two different books because the Champion seems not only good but fun as heck to play. You could argue that they don't play like Paladins in other editions and I'd agree with that to some extent- they're still about defending allies and following a cause. But saying they're the worst class in PF2, let alone in all of D&D history seems off to me.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Additionally, Sleep in 3.x and PF1 also allowed a save to negate. Did you consider those versions to be "borderline trap options" as well?

Anything that allows a save to negate is subject to extreme scrutiny, since you're spending an action and a spell slot to (quite possibly) have nothing happen. In order to balance that probability, the effect needs to be fairly overwhelming when it does hit. Getting a free coup-de-grace attempt is a reasonable payoff; it's worth the chance of wasting your action and spell slot.

Granting a temporary bonus to accuracy against the target is not a reasonable payoff.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Anything that allows a save to negate is subject to extreme scrutiny, since you're spending an action and a spell slot to (quite possibly) have nothing happen. In order to balance that probability, the effect needs to be fairly overwhelming when it does hit. Getting a free coup-de-grace attempt is a reasonable payoff; it's worth the chance of wasting your action and spell slot.

Granting a temporary bonus to accuracy against the target is not a reasonable payoff.

I'll grant you that may be true in a system where you cast one or two spells and you're effectively done for the day.

That system isn't PF2. A 1st level wizard has 3 to 4 spells slots per day, plus a focus point, plus at will cantrips that are pretty good. Given all that, I disagree with your premise that any spell that grants a save in this system must be "fairly overwhelming" to be worthwhile.

 

[CapnZapp]

What is fairly overwhelming is my desire for the Sleep nonsense not to derail the thread.

 

[RSIxidor]

Another level 1 wizard spell that feels a bit eh compared to what it was in previous editions is Ray of Enfeeblement. It now requires you to land a spell attack, and then the target still gets a chance to save out of it. Granted, in this case a success still applies the enfeebled 1 condition, so as long as you hit you do get something out of it.

 

[Campbell]

Anything that allows a save to negate is subject to extreme scrutiny, since you're spending an action and a spell slot to (quite possibly) have nothing happen. In order to balance that probability, the effect needs to be fairly overwhelming when it does hit. Getting a free coup-de-grace attempt is a reasonable payoff; it's worth the chance of wasting your action and spell slot.

Granting a temporary bonus to accuracy against the target is not a reasonable payoff.

This is Pathfinder 2's equivalent to a coup-de-grace. You get the same results as you would if you were attacking any other Unconscious target. This can be paired with strong multiple action attacks like a Fighter's Power Attack, a Barbarian's Furious Finish, or a Ranger's Hunter's Aim. Hunter's Aim in this circumstance would guarantee a hit.

In general there are no sure things in this game. One of the design goals was to add a sense of uncertainty and drama back into the game. Many spells that were automatic wins like Nondetection, Remove Disease, and True Seeing have been redesigned so they give you a chance to overcome hostile magic. PC side immunities are pretty much gone. The good news for casters is that save or suck spells have been broadly changed to have degrees of suck instead, often still having some effect on a successful save and dramatic effects on critical failure.

This is as true for martial classes is it is for spell casters. You generally can not stack your bonuses so high you have no chance of failing. The choices you make when building a martial character about the types of things you can do rather than how well you do it. Many abilities take time to properly setup with significant risks.

Your skill at playing the game is meant to be exercised in play, but that includes a strong impact from preparation and solid play in the exploration phase. It just won't win entirely on its own. You need to be good at all arenas of play.

 

[Campbell]

I know it is not a great comfort at first level, but several of the first level debuff spells look like they will never really go out of style and can still be cast from first level slots. Ray of Enfeeblement and Fear look like they will remain strong in low level slots.