M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[Parmandur]

True. But with Barker, its not just his known work on Tekumel that seems incongruous with "Serpent's Wake", but details of his life. He was a convert to Islam, married a non-white woman, had many friends and colleagues who are shocked he wrote "Serpent's Walk".

People are complicated and weird, that's for sure.

His wife is Pakistani, from an area historically settled by...the Aryans (the real ones, not the Nazi propaganda ones, but still "white" by white supremacist lights), and not to get into real world religion or politics too deeply...but there was a strong strain if attraction to a certain romanticized idea of Islam in European Fascist circles. Enough that being a Nazi sympathizer might be why someone might study South Asian culture and religions...

So I don't find sny of that incongruous, if you examine the kooky principles he apparently held.

 

[Dire Bare]

I'm part Jewish, and probably Romani so that even if I had fun with EPT in the 80's it is fully spoiled and I won't touch it again, and having nothing good to say, so I really have nothing to say at all... However, what has become self evident is how many people knew, since at least the 80's and said nothing. I mean crafting a "response" for ten years? Then only saying anything after the news has broken, makes me unsettled to say the least.

It is disappointing that the author of that blog @darjr posted, Dave Morris, sat on his knowledge of "Serpent's Wake" for a decade. I don't know who Dave Morris is . . . a fan? A writer? Someone in the tabletop gaming industry?

But I do know that if someone I knew personally revealed to me that they wrote a neo-Nazi fantasy novel they were having trouble shopping around . . . . I'm not sure what I'd do with that information. I would certainly express my disgust to them. But would I "out" them? And exactly how would I go about it? Especially if I wasn't convinced that the existence of this novel made this person a Nazi sympathizer.

This does speak to a larger problem in certain spaces . . . a neutral acceptance of Nazism and other horrors of history. I get the impression that the blog author, Morris, isn't sympathetic to Nazi views himself, but does view that exploring these issues is a legitimate literary exercise. And that he extends this to Barker's motivations. It reminds me of some of the things Gygax is quoted saying, showing that Gygax admired certain historical figures that were responsible for some pretty awful stuff, not that Gygax approved of the awfulness itself, but could admire the effectiveness from a "neutral", historical point of view. It seems that more than a few folks who came out of the "old school" wargaming scene that predated D&D share this amoral viewpoint on history and historical figures. A weird perspective I can't get behind, personally, and one of the reasons why I'm not a huge Gygax fan.

 

[Parmandur]

It is disappointing that the author of that blog @darjr posted, Dave Morris, sat on his knowledge of "Serpent's Wake" for a decade. I don't know who Dave Morris is . . . a fan? A writer? Someone in the tabletop gaming industry?

But I do know that if someone I knew personally revealed to me that they wrote a neo-Nazi fantasy novel they were having trouble shopping around . . . . I'm not sure what I'd do with that information. I would certainly express my disgust to them. But would I "out" them? And exactly how would I go about it? Especially if I wasn't convinced that the existence of this novel made this person a Nazi sympathizer.

This does speak to a larger problem in certain spaces . . . a neutral acceptance of Nazism and other horrors of history. I get the impression that the blog author, Morris, isn't sympathetic to Nazi views himself, but does view that exploring these issues is a legitimate literary exercise. And that he extends this to Barker's motivations. It reminds me of some of the things Gygax is quoted saying, showing that Gygax admired certain historical figures that were responsible for some pretty awful stuff, not that Gygax approved of the awfulness itself, but could admire the effectiveness from a "neutral", historical point of view. It seems that more than a few folks who came out of the "old school" wargaming scene that predated D&D share this amoral viewpoint on history and historical figures. A weird perspective I can't get behind, personally, and one of the reasons why I'm not a huge Gygax fan.

Yeah, the old school wargamers had q pretty cynical outlook on history.

 

[John Dallman]

I don't know who Dave Morris is . . . a fan? A writer? Someone in the tabletop gaming industry?

First known for adventure gamebooks, published a TTRPG, a lot of fiction, and some computer game material.

 

[billd91]

Yeah, the old school wargamers had q pretty cynical outlook on history.

I don't know that I'd call it cynical. It's compartmentalized. Most WWII-era war games are concerned with the battlefield and, sometimes, logistics (at least with respect to supporting things on the battlefield). Some, like Advanced Third Reich, also delve into high level views of wartime diplomacy. But they usually don't deal with other aspects of the war - massacres of civilians in Eastern Europe, intentional mass starvation of Soviet POWs, and the Holocaust. Non-WWII games also tend to skip over the epidemics, famines, and other mass depopulations that wars typically inflict.
Most of those wouldn't be good topics for games (though there is a scenario for Advanced Squad Leader that involves an uprising in a Warsaw ghetto) and so get glossed over in the tabletop wargames. That may give the impression of cynicism, but I really don't think that's the right description.

 

[Jer]

First known for adventure gamebooks, published a TTRPG, a lot of fiction, and some computer game material.

Wait - it's THAT Dave Morris? Fabled Lands/Blood Sword/Dragon Warriors Dave Morris?

Well ... ouch.

 

[darjr]

Wait - it's THAT Dave Morris? Fabled Lands/Blood Sword/Dragon Warriors Dave Morris?

Well ... ouch.

The very same.

 

[Umbran]

He is dead. Why did the OP post about a dead person who works are no longer being used or well liked? The OP posted to get responses, I will post an amusing response. Anything else I could have post would not be nice.

So, your contribution to the discussion is that the discussion shouldn't happen?

Maybe you should find a thread in which you can say something constructive or useful to others, hm?

 

[darjr]

From Grognardia.

I wish it were otherwise. I wish it were easier to disentangle my love for Tékumel from my revulsion at Barker's repugnant other interests. Consequently, I am in no position to judge anyone else's response to these revelations; each of us will have to grapple with it in our own way and on our own schedule. I know of long-time Tékumel fans who have simply decided to walk away from the setting entirely, just as I know others who do not feel that would be the right response, given how much genuine pleasure and joy the setting has brought them, despite the secret villainy of its creator. This latter group takes inspiration from Ted Johnstone, an early contributor to Alarums & Excursions, who famously wrote that "D&D is too important to leave to Gary Gygax."

Shock and Betrayal

By now, I assume most anyone reading this will have heard the revelations about M.A.R. Barker. If you have not, I reproduce here a statement...

grognardia.blogspot.com

 

[darjr]

Wait? Midkemia was loosely based on Tekumel?

and that author excised things out

edit to add I’m not placing anything on midkemia, I just didn’t know

 

[darjr]

The more I think about what Dave Morris posted the angrier I get.

 

[Parmandur]

Wait? Midkemia was loosely based on Tekumel?

Strictly speaking, no, Kelewan was: the Riftwar was the result of a homemade crossover between standard OD&D (Midkemia) and Tekumel (Kelewan) through portals.

Kelewan is probably how most people have primarily experienced Tekumel.

 

[dragoner]

It is disappointing that the author of that blog @darjr posted, Dave Morris, sat on his knowledge of "Serpent's Wake" for a decade. I don't know who Dave Morris is . . . a fan? A writer? Someone in the tabletop gaming industry?

But I do know that if someone I knew personally revealed to me that they wrote a neo-Nazi fantasy novel they were having trouble shopping around . . . . I'm not sure what I'd do with that information. I would certainly express my disgust to them. But would I "out" them? And exactly how would I go about it? Especially if I wasn't convinced that the existence of this novel made this person a Nazi sympathizer.

This does speak to a larger problem in certain spaces . . . a neutral acceptance of Nazism and other horrors of history. I get the impression that the blog author, Morris, isn't sympathetic to Nazi views himself, but does view that exploring these issues is a legitimate literary exercise. And that he extends this to Barker's motivations. It reminds me of some of the things Gygax is quoted saying, showing that Gygax admired certain historical figures that were responsible for some pretty awful stuff, not that Gygax approved of the awfulness itself, but could admire the effectiveness from a "neutral", historical point of view. It seems that more than a few folks who came out of the "old school" wargaming scene that predated D&D share this amoral viewpoint on history and historical figures. A weird perspective I can't get behind, personally, and one of the reasons why I'm not a huge Gygax fan.

To be honest, I am the kind of person who punches nazis, such as at thunder bay, a berkeley ca dance club on industrial dance night, someone who I vaguely knew, confessed to me they were a nazi and I laid them out, caused a mini riot between mine and another crew. Granted this was the early 90's, and about Barker or Gygax, I have nothing good to say, except they were a product of their times, but death has evened the score, so I don't care anymore. It's the other people, people around now that knew.

I am a game designer too, and sure, I guess my left politics are on display in my setting, and whether or not someone thinks it is "woke space" or not, I don't care; mostly I have got good reviews. I am not a white night, by any means; and from what I have seen in Tekumel, and Greyhawk, I think Gygax wasn't quite as off the hook as Barker; except neither setting do I consider myself an expert on.

With war games, there has always been that certain set, now they get called "wehraboos" though Marc Miller of Traveller fame wrote an article about the boy who loved panzers, and personally I sort of understand it, as there was a lot of propaganda around the military, and some don't parse it well.

All things said and done, covering up for, or being apologist for a nazi, is pretty bad.

 

[Jer]

With war games, there has always been that certain set, now they get called "wehraboos"

Not being in wargaming circles I've never heard this term and now I'll be thinking about it for the rest of the day.

Wehraboos...

 

[Dire Bare]

I don't know that I'd call it cynical. It's compartmentalized. Most WWII-era war games are concerned with the battlefield and, sometimes, logistics (at least with respect to supporting things on the battlefield). Some, like Advanced Third Reich, also delve into high level views of wartime diplomacy. But they usually don't deal with other aspects of the war - massacres of civilians in Eastern Europe, intentional mass starvation of Soviet POWs, and the Holocaust. Non-WWII games also tend to skip over the epidemics, famines, and other mass depopulations that wars typically inflict.
Most of those wouldn't be good topics for games (though there is a scenario for Advanced Squad Leader that involves an uprising in a Warsaw ghetto) and so get glossed over in the tabletop wargames. That may give the impression of cynicism, but I really don't think that's the right description.

Compartmentalization. Yup, that's what I was searching for. The tendency for some old school wargamers to compartmentalize history. I think that might partly explain Barker's Nazi novel . . . but still, I think it goes beyond that.

 

[Staffan]

Wait? Midkemia was loosely based on Tekumel?

With some degrees of separation. Midkemia itself was based on some kind of extremely house-ruled D&D, which among other things involved planar travel to an Asian-inspired setting called Kelewan. Kelewan had its roots in Tekumel, but I don't know to what degree. I know Feist has talked about how much of the flavor of the book version of Kelewan comes from his collaboration with Janny Wurts on the Daughter of the Empire series.

 

[Bilharzia]

Wait - it's THAT Dave Morris? Fabled Lands/Blood Sword/Dragon Warriors Dave Morris?

Well ... ouch.

Yes, but since these days Dave is flogging crypto currencies, perhaps the thinking was that he may as well defend Barker to attract as much ill-feeling as humanly possible.

 

[jasper]

When will you do that?

Ouch. MEDIC MEDIC.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Ouch. MEDIC MEDIC.

Please state the nature of the medical emergency

 

[pemerton]

This does speak to a larger problem in certain spaces . . . a neutral acceptance of Nazism and other horrors of history. I get the impression that the blog author, Morris, isn't sympathetic to Nazi views himself, but does view that exploring these issues is a legitimate literary exercise. And that he extends this to Barker's motivations. It reminds me of some of the things Gygax is quoted saying, showing that Gygax admired certain historical figures that were responsible for some pretty awful stuff, not that Gygax approved of the awfulness itself, but could admire the effectiveness from a "neutral", historical point of view. It seems that more than a few folks who came out of the "old school" wargaming scene that predated D&D share this amoral viewpoint on history and historical figures. A weird perspective I can't get behind, personally, and one of the reasons why I'm not a huge Gygax fan.

The separation of political/moral from aesthetic value is at the core of fantasy as a genre.

JRRT's world is arch-reactionary, racist, and celebrates authoritarian government. The legend of King Arthur is much the same. REH's Conan is a celebration of a murderer and freebooter. In Star Wars we cheer when thousands of enemy crew die in massive explosions with no quarter seeming to be offered.

These are all fundamental elements of the fantasy genre: "LG" paladins who serve righteous kings; "heroes" whose principle mode of resolving conflicts is to deploy interpersonal violence; peoples divided along reified ethnics and racial lines (elves, dwarves, orcs, etc).

And even RPGs and settings that, in principle, might be able to express different outlooks - eg Traveller - tend not to. The default setting for Traveller is an Imperium; and the default conflict resolution framework in Traveller is one-on-one or small unit combat.