M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[Fifth Element]

The problem with that is that it presumes there's a clear manner to delineate "where the only real alternative is lying," from all of the other times. While I won't go so far as to say that there's always an alternative explanation, my suspicion is that instances where there isn't are fewer than is generally presumed.

It presumes no such thing. It's talking about the cases in which we can make such a delineation. That often has to do with the form that the particular accusation takes.

Who decides what's reasonable?

Everyone has to do that for themselves, obviously. And when discussing it with someone, if you think their standards are too low or too high, you can explain why you think that in order to convince them. This is how we discuss things and arrive at conclusions.

 

[Dire Bare]

One of the 'Uncaged' series had hammer and sickle magic items in what was obviously supposed to be a positive context, and Communism has its own eight-digit death toll. People more up-to-date could probably come up with better examples.

I don't think there's a huge fascism problem in tabletop gaming per se. (Online games are another story...I'm told they're a major recruiting ground.) It may have inclusion problems, but actual fascists seem pretty thin on the ground from what I've seen...even progressive bete noires like the RPGPundit will boot you from their forums if you actually start expressing Nazi views. Barker seems to have kept anything explicit out of his game. Nazis are standard villains, often to a ridiculous degree (Cthulhu Dark Ages has evil cults whose symbol is a swastika...though I suppose in-game maybe the historical Nazis were descendants of the evil cults, which is very Cthulhu).

Tabletop games, for whatever reason, seem to lean heavily left (maybe in reaction to the Satanic Panic of the 80s driving off a large fraction of the right? no clue). But I don't think support for Communist cells is a 'burning issue'.

There's a difference between communism, Stalinism, and Maoism. Communism itself, does not have a death toll. Specific examples of communism, like Stalinism and Maoism, most certainly do. But, yeah, the hammer-and-sickle doesn't represent general communism, but rather Soviet-style communism, Stalinism. It's not something I'd be comfortable including in a gaming product.

But someone of Russian descent, for whom the hammer-and-sickle are as patriotic as the stars-and-stripes in the US? I'd hesitate to judge the positive use of the hammer-and-sickle as supportive of the worst aspects of Soviet communism.

I don't have all of the Uncaged books, but now I want to go back through the ones I do have looking for these items! You don't remember which volume they are in, do you?

 

[Tantavalist]

I think this pussyfoots around a more incisive take on what might be the case here, which is that it's neither racist nor Islamophobic to point out that there's a non-negligible portion of contemporary Islamic culture that engages in antisemitism, and that's where the Venn diagram overlaps with Nazism. To what degree this may or may not have been related to Barker's apparent engagement with Holocaust denial I can't speculate, but the possibility is one that should at least be acknowledged.

As someone who's been familiar with Temumel for two decades now this is what I suspect was the biggest influence on MAR Barker when he did these things. He was a convert to Islam, and took on board antisemetism from that route rather than via US-based neo-Nazi groups.

It doesn't make what he did acceptable. I point this out not as an excuse but as an explanation for what most Tekumel fans will find the hardest part to accept about Barker writing neo-nazi propaganda, which is...

His biggest claim to fame was that he dedicated a significant portion of his life to creating a detailed fictional setting where all the humans are brown-skinned.

The only hint remaining that Europeans ever existed is that recessive genes occasionally produce someone with blue eyes- which the Tsolyani consider a sign of being cursed and results in treatment not dissimilar to how Westerosi in Game of Thrones treat bastards. Oh, and homosexuality is also practiced openly and without persecution there as well.

As for how someone manages to take on the anti-semetic portion of Nazi ideology without the rest of it... Like being any form of bigot, there comes a point where you can't explain their actions logically because they ultimately aren't based on logic.

 

[Blue Orange]

There are quite a few antisemitic ideologies. I recall reading about one Nazi who had joined the Order of Nine Angles, an obscure occult group, and was prosecuted for aiding ISIS. This sounds kind of similar. Common enemies have been a staple of political alliances since forever, and not just on the fringes--how much did evangelical Christians and corporate CEOs have in common during the Reagan era? Well, they were both against Communism. A 'popular front' is an alliance of liberals, socialists, and communists against fascism.

I disagree, though, they often do follow some sort of logical scheme, it's just that the premises are so bizarre. (The rapper BoB's 'Flatline' includes antisemitic statements along with references to the Freemasons, Holocaust denial, David Icke's Reptoids, and the earth being flat.)

 

[Umbran]

You can't divorce Gygax's sexist comments and implementations of his sexism in the game from his legacy. It is a part of his legacy. Defending his legacy is defending his sexism

Hold your roll a second, because "legacy" is a big word. What counts as "his legacy"?

It is reasonable to say that D&D, in general, is Gygax's legacy (it is also Arneson's, and several other people's). There are parts of what he left us that were problematic. Heck, one can make a solid argument that RPGs in general are his legacy to us.

You are currently posting on a site that was born of celebrating his legacy in that sense - D&D, 3e and beyond. So, you are currently celebrating his legacy posting here. So, either you, and every other person on this site, are defending his sexism, or we recognize that we can separate parts of the work, call them out as problems and leave them behind, but celebrate the rest.

Rare, indeed, is the perfect person. If you say we cannot ever separately consider the good and the bad, then as a practical matter, there is no ethical way to ever enjoy any art, because we are always defending their flaws.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, I don't think it's fair to compare Gygax's character shortcomings with Neo-Nazism and Holocaust denial. Gygax appear at have had some casual standard issue Midwestern American Boomer racist and sexist ideas, which isn't great...but he wasn't involved in reactionary political action on either front.

 

[Random Task]

As this isn't a court of law, we don't need to come to a consensus.

One person may feel there is enough evidence that Barker is a terrible neo-Nazi, and another may feel there is not yet enough evidence. Those folks will likely react differently to the recent news of "Serpent's Walk". And that's okay.

We only need worry about those who think Barker being a neo-Nazi isn't a big deal. Or worse, those who would be now more interested in his work. Or those who work very hard to deflect any criticism or discussion over their literary and gaming heroes revealed flaws.

Writing a Neo-Nazi novel and being on the board of a Holocaust denying journal for decades are pretty darn convicting.

 

[Parmandur]

His biggest claim to fame was that he dedicated a significant portion of his life to creating a detailed fictional setting where all the humans are brown-skinned.

The only hint remaining that Europeans ever existed is that recessive genes occasionally produce someone with blue eyes- which the Tsolyani consider a sign of being cursed and results in treatment not dissimilar to how Westerosi in Game of Thrones treat bastards. Oh, and homosexuality is also practiced openly and without persecution there as well.

Not gonna lie...that setup sounds super racist to me, in a sort of racist dystopia fashion.

 

[Blue Orange]

There's a difference between communism, Stalinism, and Maoism. Communism itself, does not have a death toll. Specific examples of communism, like Stalinism and Maoism, most certainly do. But, yeah, the hammer-and-sickle doesn't represent general communism, but rather Soviet-style communism, Stalinism. It's not something I'd be comfortable including in a gaming product.

But someone of Russian descent, for whom the hammer-and-sickle are as patriotic as the stars-and-stripes in the US? I'd hesitate to judge the positive use of the hammer-and-sickle as supportive of the worst aspects of Soviet communism.

I don't have all of the Uncaged books, but now I want to go back through the ones I do have looking for these items! You don't remember which volume they are in, do you?

Volume 4, under magical items there's a hammer of freedom (with the inscription "nothing to lose but our chains") and a worker's sickle.

I'm not sure Russians would consider the hammer and sickle patriotic at this point (though most Russians outside of Russia probably aren't feeling all that patriotic with Putin's invasion). Current national symbols include the flag, the bear, the double-headed eagle on the coat of arms, and the chamomile flower (at least according to Wikipedia). The few Russians I talked to didn't seem to have fond memories of the Soviet period, though they weren't fond of Putin either. (Honestly, Russian history is pretty unpleasant.)

The hammer and sickle was banned in Georgia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, and Ukraine in 2010, though apparently Moldova and Hungary later reversed this (and this was pre-Orban). So, it is kind of like the swastika in parts of Europe.

Now there were attempts at a 'kinder, gentler' communism (the Eurocommunism that came about in reaction to the crushing of the Prague Spring), but from what I can tell they all turned into social democracy or hardline communism. Whether socialism is the same thing as communism is another story--democratic socialist regimes exist, and don't seem to be all that economically successful but don't turn into genocidal regimes either. (There's an excellent argument to be made that trading some success for equality is moral--laissez-faire capitalism has its own list of horrors-- but I don't want to get into that now.) Basically, there are lots of non-democidal leftist ideologies, but I don't think communism qualifies at this point.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually, it makes him an anti-Semitic It is important to the words that actually apply.

Mod Note:

Since the Holocaust consumed the lives of not only Jews, but also ethnic and racial minorities, the term “racist” still applies, as would “equal opportunity bigot”.

IMHO, you’ve stirred the pot in this thread well enough. Done,