M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[Parmandur]

I doubt anyone outside a very small circle will ever know. They can only make themselves look worse by admitting to exactly how long they sat on it. There’s no upside for them letting that out. So it likely won’t happen.

Yup. Says enough by itself, though.

 

[darjr]

I doubt anyone outside a very small circle will ever know. They can only make themselves look worse by admitting to exactly how long they sat on it. There’s no upside for them letting that out. So it likely won’t happen.

I’m certain a particular archivist or fellow RPG creator thought the very same thing.

 

[Hussar]

Bingo. Which is why I don't really mind that most D&D settings resemble theme parks.

Which, isn't that exactly what I just said? That we lampshade the icky bits in service to the game?

Sure, I might have said it a bit stronger than that, but, frankly, I'm not sure why I'm getting much push back here. The basic point was that fantasy as a genre tends to overlook the icky bits so we can have fun. Doesn't change anything, but, it is good to recognize that fact. I'd almost go a step further and say that the reason that so many people push back whenever these types of issues - Lovecraft, now Barker, whatever- come up is because of a lack of self reflection as to just how much we do elide over when we play these games.

 

[Hussar]

Lovecraft and Barker are different, it seems that people bringing up HPL are going out of their way to try to defend Barker. While HPL was wrong in a lot of what he thought, it is also important to remember that he could have been mentally ill, and psychology papers have been written on such. HPL suffered under delusions, as well as in homelessness, indigence, and after being bedridden, death. Some think he actually believed Cthulhu to be real. His delusional racism, was also punishing, to be forced to live in paranoid fear of other people. Mental health officials will say that some issues of persecution of a religious, or racial issues are not uncommon. Ultimately as far as we can despise his feelings, we also simply don't know their origin, and it is wrong to demonize the mentally ill.

Barker is completely different, he chose to be a nazi, in the full grasp of his faculties.

I'd say the basic point still remains. The notion of "Occupy Tekumel" is a good one. Let's take the good ideas, and then consign the creators to a footnote. I mean, how many people enjoy Lovecraftian horror, which is a pretty broad genre, that have probably never read Lovecraft? And that's a good thing.

 

[Hussar]

There were legitimate college classes taught about Buffy.

Buffy studies - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Still going to stand by the "most people" part of my statement.

 

[MGibster]

Sure, I might have said it a bit stronger than that, but, frankly, I'm not sure why I'm getting much push back here. The basic point was that fantasy as a genre tends to overlook the icky bits so we can have fun.

The only pushback you're getting from me is equating feudalism with totalitarianism. And the reason you're getting pushback is because I've noticed a rather cynical trend in online circles pushing the narrative that everything in the past was just terrible or that people were trash. And looking through the past with such a cynical lens distorts it just as much as looking at it through rose colored lenses.

And I don't mind saying that I tend to overlook the icky bits of just about every period of time in my games. While I don't exactly ignore racism and sexism in my 1920s Call of Cthulhu games, it's also not as prevalent in my games as it was in the United States during the era. i.e. I tone it down quite a bit.

 

[dragoner]

I'd say the basic point still remains. The notion of "Occupy Tekumel" is a good one. Let's take the good ideas, and then consign the creators to a footnote. I mean, how many people enjoy Lovecraftian horror, which is a pretty broad genre, that have probably never read Lovecraft? And that's a good thing.

For me, no, it's ruined. So I would disagree.

 

[Hussar]

The only pushback you're getting from me is equating feudalism with totalitarianism. And the reason you're getting pushback is because I've noticed a rather cynical trend in online circles pushing the narrative that everything in the past was just terrible or that people were trash. And looking through the past with such a cynical lens distorts it just as much as looking at it through rose colored lenses.

And I don't mind saying that I tend to overlook the icky bits of just about every period of time in my games. While I don't exactly ignore racism and sexism in my 1920s Call of Cthulhu games, it's also not as prevalent in my games as it was in the United States during the era. i.e. I tone it down quite a bit.

Fair enough. We got to the point eventually.

I mean, I've been watching the discussion around lots of the board games we've been playing as well. The point is, the past is a pretty dark place sometimes and that is generally not reflected in our games.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, by definition, any healthy artistic culture is going to be mostly mediocre. The exceptional is always an exception, but when lots of workman mediocrity is being produced and consumed, the exceptional work is more likely to be attempted.

 

[Parmandur]

View attachment 154353

Precisely: and the next logical step is, the more of something there is overall, the larger that 10% will be in absolute terms.