Mad at Paizo?

darjr

I crit!
Edit to say its a month not a day.

Hmmm so let’s see. Currently the core book is at 1234 ASR. From what I’ve read at other places that’s hundreds of books a day. This calculator tries to give a solid number which seems on the low side but for a sales rank of 1200 according to them that’s almost 600 books a month. Is that good sales? @Morrus ?

I think so. It’s been much higher for most of the month.
 
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darjr

I crit!
@Xenonnonex I don’t doubt you, I have no idea. But I’d be interested if you could point out a link or a quote? If you can’t or really don’t want too thats OK with me too. I get it.
 

Retreater

Adventurer
@Xenonnonex I don’t doubt you, I have no idea. But I’d be interested if you could point out a link or a quote? If you can’t or really don’t want too thats OK with me too. I get it.
I can speak to it, having gone by the Paizo booth numerous times and saw massive pallets of PF2 books there. They did move a good many early in the Con, but by Saturday and Sunday, the stacks didn't move much. Also, there were large stacks available at other retailers (for those who didn't want to wait in the Paizo "line" - which lasted only two days). There was a booth (Foam Brain) that had huge stacks of the Rulebook and Bestiary, probably about 5' tall, that they weren't moving at all. Other companies that I can't remember also were reselling the books.
Now maybe we need to congratulate Paizo on bringing plenty of product for all their fans? However, I think they may have overestimated demand. Past GenCons I remember them selling out of the 1st edition Beta Playtest, 1st edition core rules, Advanced Players Guide, Starfinder, and more.
This can show a lot of things. Perhaps a lot of fans were buying at online retailers such as Amazon, or that Paizo has the resources to make huge print runs (which they didn't have with the 1st edition core rules). Or maybe it is tanking?
 

Parmandur

Legend
I can speak to it, having gone by the Paizo booth numerous times and saw massive pallets of PF2 books there. They did move a good many early in the Con, but by Saturday and Sunday, the stacks didn't move much. Also, there were large stacks available at other retailers (for those who didn't want to wait in the Paizo "line" - which lasted only two days). There was a booth (Foam Brain) that had huge stacks of the Rulebook and Bestiary, probably about 5' tall, that they weren't moving at all. Other companies that I can't remember also were reselling the books.
Now maybe we need to congratulate Paizo on bringing plenty of product for all their fans? However, I think they may have overestimated demand. Past GenCons I remember them selling out of the 1st edition Beta Playtest, 1st edition core rules, Advanced Players Guide, Starfinder, and more.
This can show a lot of things. Perhaps a lot of fans were buying at online retailers such as Amazon, or that Paizo has the resources to make huge print runs (which they didn't have with the 1st edition core rules). Or maybe it is tanking?
It shows that there was a miscalculation for Gen Con: maybe everyone bought from Amazon to save a few bucks and avoid the lines.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
They've stabilized at a pretty great place, selling better than Starfinder or Call of Cthulu. Is it the best selling RPG of all time? No. If it needed to be they had deeper problems as a company.

The Gen Con thing is weird, though.
Maybe there were a lot of people like me this time?
I had a quite busy GC planned. I'd have had zero time to read the book(s). And I wouldn't get the discount my local shop gives me.
Wich meant that if I'd bought them there I'd be lugging them around for a day for no reason. Or at least back to the car on Sunday.... So why not just wait until I got home & pick them up in a few days when I'm going to be at the shop anyways?
Others I suspect saved even more on Amazon. But my supporting my local shop is enlightened self interest.

Or maybe they simply had their sales estimates off? It happens you know.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Maybe there were a lot of people like me this time?
I had a quite busy GC planned. I'd have had zero time to read the book(s). And I wouldn't get the discount my local shop gives me.
Wich meant that if I'd bought them there I'd be lugging them around for a day for no reason. Or at least back to the car on Sunday.... So why not just wait until I got home & pick them up in a few days when I'm going to be at the shop anyways?
Others I suspect saved even more on Amazon. But my supporting my local shop is enlightened self interest.

Or maybe they simply had their sales estimates off? It happens you know.
Well, that last part for sure, Paizo and third parties. Hard to extrapolate a broader pattern from that fact, though.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
On a recent news post about PF2E Bestiary 2, I was wondering if it was deseperation that announcing stuff so much in advance, to which point Morrus told me that I might be an outlier;



To which point I'm starting to wonder why I am so mad at them? It's totally normal for them to go forward and wanting to renew their franchise, DnD did that 5 times already (and I guess we'll see 6th by 2025). So why am I that mad at them? The only thing that I could find is that I'm sad to see all those books going to waste but that's only a material issue. It's like I feel betrayed.

Am I alone with this sentiment? It's a not a joke question, I'm truly curious about this.
Are you relatively new to PF1 &/or thinking about all the $ you've spent (wasted?) on a (now) previous edition?
Are you concerned that you won't be able to continue playing PF1?
Do you not like PF2?
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Lisa Stevens addressed sales here.

Lisa Stevens said:
Qstor said:
Did the books sell out at GenCon?
Nope. But that was by design. We literally took more books than we could actually sell given the number of cashiers that we had there. I didn't want a repeat of the Starfinder release where we ran out on Friday. So we took quite a lot. And sold more than we have ever sold of anything at GenCon. So it was a huge success for us.
I agree that it is not really the best optics, but if you take them at their word they had a phenomenal Gencon. Paizo as a company has always been pretty straightforward. That's why I remained a fan of the company even though I was very much a Fourth Edition fan.
 

darjr

I crit!
to bring it back cause I think I derailed yet another thread. Sorry.

I remember Lisa Stevens saying something about keeping the company small so that they could avoid the pitfalls of the past. Like the book churn treadmill, or the edition treadmill. I know they gotta do what they gotta do, but it does “seem” like those ideas were left behind and then Paizo fell into the same trap. Even if the book churn was a fraction of the 3.5 WotC book release cycle. I also know, we’re I still playing Pathfinder, that I would have appreciated something more like the 3.5 to Pathfinder change for the PF1 to PF2 change. Then maybe they could have put out that new style of Golarian setting, advancing the timeline, and doing new and different kind of cool books and adventure paths.

My biggest early frustration with 4e was the stark incompatible systems. And part of why I liked 5e is it was more compatible to older stuff in ways that mattered most even if not directly rules compatible.

I think that kind of break has happened with PF1 and PF2. And that would be frustrating.
 

darjr

I crit!
Nope. But that was by design. We literally took more books than we could actually sell given the number of cashiers that we had there. I didn't want a repeat of the Starfinder release where we ran out on Friday. So we took quite a lot. And sold more than we have ever sold of anything at GenCon. So it was a huge success for us.
 

Attachments

Mercador

Explorer
To clarify, I didn’t comment on the probability of your being mad at Paizo for some reason, merely on your perception of them announcing a product as seeming “desperate”. I’m sure plenty of peopleare mad at companies for making new editions.
I heard you, I didn't take offense, no worries. I'm wondering why I'm still mad at them.
 

Mercador

Explorer
Because you are emotionally invested in 1E. Maybe you have a history with D&D 3/3.5 and felt that when you moved to PF you found a "forever home"?

It's understandable to feel emotional about something changing or ending. But ask yourself this, is there enough 1E material available that you could play 1E for the rest of your life and not duplicate or run out of stuff? I suspect the answer is yes. So then it's not like you are being "left behind" but rather that their is nothing more you need so Paizo has moved on to something new...
I had actually skipped 3/3.5 because I was on my early twenties and didn't had the money to purchase those. I did buy 5-6 books of the 2nd edition though when I was a teenager. But if I remember correctly, I felt the same when DnD 3e was announced.

When I see all the PF1 books I have, I'm ok for the rest of my life, sure thing. But there's something that bothers me is that I always want a new book and I'm not too sure why.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I had actually skipped 3/3.5 because I was on my early twenties and didn't had the money to purchase those. I did buy 5-6 books of the 2nd edition though when I was a teenager. But if I remember correctly, I felt the same when DnD 3e was announced.

When I see all the PF1 books I have, I'm ok for the rest of my life, sure thing. But there's something that bothers me is that I always want a new book and I'm not too sure why.
It's kind of a high.
 

Mercador

Explorer
Are you relatively new to PF1 &/or thinking about all the $ you've spent (wasted?) on a (now) previous edition?
Are you concerned that you won't be able to continue playing PF1?
Do you not like PF2?
1- The latter
2- Not that much, I read more than I play
3- I haven't buy it so I can't relate

I thought wrongfully that Paizo would continue adding new stuff about Golarion and Adventure Paths. That's probably why I'm mad and feel betrayed. As @DaveMage wrote it, there's an emotional bound there.
 

Schmoe

Explorer
On a recent news post about PF2E Bestiary 2, I was wondering if it was deseperation that announcing stuff so much in advance, to which point Morrus told me that I might be an outlier;

To which point I'm starting to wonder why I am so mad at them? It's totally normal for them to go forward and wanting to renew their franchise, DnD did that 5 times already (and I guess we'll see 6th by 2025). So why am I that mad at them? The only thing that I could find is that I'm sad to see all those books going to waste but that's only a material issue. It's like I feel betrayed.

Am I alone with this sentiment? It's a not a joke question, I'm truly curious about this.
I don't know if you're alone, but I'm not really feeling the anger. In fact, I'm pretty happy that they decided to start over. PF1 had long ago drifted far away from something I felt I could pick up, but PF2 means I now have a new, interesting option to check out.
 

Mercador

Explorer
I don't know if you're alone, but I'm not really feeling the anger. In fact, I'm pretty happy that they decided to start over. PF1 had long ago drifted far away from something I felt I could pick up, but PF2 means I now have a new, interesting option to check out.
You are going from DnD5e to PF2e? Have you bought PF1 books? I'm asking because you might be the target audience they were after.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
1- The latter
2- Not that much, I read more than I play
3- I haven't buy it so I can't relate

I thought wrongfully that Paizo would continue adding new stuff about Golarion and Adventure Paths. That's probably why I'm mad and feel betrayed. As @DaveMage wrote it, there's an emotional bound there.
Ahh. Well. In that case I've got good news for you:

See Age of Ashes & Extinction Curse? Those are the 1st two APs for PF2. I'm sure there'll be more. One volume per month.
I'm also certain that they'll continue revealing bits of Golarion through single adventures, area books, Race & class books, etc.

And if you read more than you play? Then does it really matter what the edition # is?

BTW, PF2 doesn't wipe out all the story you've read so far. The main book makes direct reference to the results of various APs in the section about the world.
Same world, same setting, same continuity. Just different mechanics on the player/GM side of things.
 

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