Magic Ammunition Costs

[KarinsDad]

On the subject of magic ammunition costs, this is no different than the subject of Wizards having to pay to put spells into spell books.

It's costly. It's the price of doing business in that class. There are ways to reduce the cost if you put in the effort. Suck it up!

 

[kengar]

Because only the arrow/bolt/bullet makes contact with the target.

I suppose, but the +1 bow's enchantment still confers a +1 damage bonus when striking a normal target, so why not affect DR?

I believe you that this is how it is written, I just think it's bit inconsistent, IMHO.


Thanks for the info at any rate.

 

[kreynolds]

In the case of arrows, this is incorrect.

A common misconception.

1) If a fighter is hit by a targeted Dispel Magic and that fighter is holding a flaming sword that has had Greater Magic Weapon cast upon it, is the sword affected?

Yes.

Do we need to make the dispel check to see if the GMW spell is removed from the sword even though the fighter (not the sword) was the target of the dispel?

A creature's equipment is part of the creature.

2) If instead the fighter and sword are caught in an area Dispel Magic, is the Greater Magic Weapon spell cast upon the sword in any danger?

Possibly. The sword is part of the creature, and the greater magic weapon effect goes into the queue of effects that might be dispelled.

For number 1, logically I would think "yes", but the spell description is pretty clear in saying "One object, creature, or spell is the target of the spell. ". Since the sword (not the character) was the target of the Greater Magic Weapon spell, it seems that it would have to be the target of a Dispel trying to get rid of it. Or do you get a bunch of objects for free when you target a creature?

See first answer.

For number 2, again I would think that the sword should be affected, but the spell description says "Magic items are not affected by area dispels. " I assume this meant that (only) the inherent magical properties of magical items are not suppressed, but that is not what is written. Any clarification (either on the rules as written or on the intent) would be much appreciated.

You assume correctly, Also see second answer.

 

[Vaxalon]

There you go.

Personally, I like area dispels better, anyways.

 

[Zhure]

GMW works great until the archer gets hit with a dispel.

I'm seriously thinking of creating a golem with a really high DR that casts dispels instead of the slow/gas attacks that stone and iron golems get. It'll kick butt against all those GMW archers.

Like a psion-killer from the Psionics Handbook?


Greg

 

[kreynolds]

Okay, so I'm wrong.

No you're not. See above.

 

[Zhure]

Another little ditty is that an archer needs to think about two stats - dex to hit, strength for damage. The melee fighter can more readily focus on one for the benefit.

STR adds to melee hit and damage. DEX adds to initiative, AC and to hit for ranged attack. Those are two equally useful abilities. An archer archetype needs additional STR as much as the tank archetype needs DEX; it's nice, but not missed when lacking.
Greg

 

[Pax]

I was going to post a new thread, but this one seems pretty closely related to my question. If my character has a +1 magic bow & buys masterwork arrows, does he then receive +2 to hit and +1 damage from his equipment? I know MW bow & MW arrows stack, but do MW arrows stack with a magic bow?

Yes. Arrow bonusses to hit and damage stack with Bow bonusses to hit and damage. Only make ssense, since MAGIC arrow bonusses stack with MAGIC bow bonusses.

To carry it further, a MW bow firign MW arrows would get, IMO, +2 to hit and +0 damage.

Pax , are you saying that the rules normally don't let you count the bow's enhancement at all against DR? I don't have my books with me so I can't look it up right now.


Thanks for any info!

Absolutely.

DMG page 183, lower right corner ... heading "Ranged weapons and Ammunition". In summary, the arrows and bows stack for to-hit and damage purposes, but:

{...} however, for the purposes of damage reduction, the enhancement bonus of a magic ranced weapon and magic ammunition do not stack. Only the ammunition's enhancement bonus is applied against the damage reduction, since it is the only part of the weapon actually striking the creature. So, a +1 longbow firing a +1 arrow contributes a +2 attack bonus to hit a creature with damage resistance 5/+2, but since the arrow itself onlyhas a +1 enhancement bonus, the damage reduction is still effective: 5 pointsof any damage dealt are subtracted form the damage the creature actually receives.

It stands to reason that a +2 longbow firing nonmagical ("+0") arrows at the same creature, is striking the creature with a nonmagical "part of the weapon", therefor, the damage reduction stays in full force.

Bows get a benefit and a drawback. Their enhancement bonus stacks with that of their ammunition, but, only the ammunition can penetrate DR.

OH, notice ... this is true for ALL ranged weapons. Slings, crossbows, any and all firearms, antimatter rifles, you name it.

 

[kreynolds]

OH, notice ... this is true for ALL ranged weapons.

Not really. It doesn't apply to throwing axes, daggers, shurikens, etc. The DR limitation only applies to ranged ammunition.

 

[Rackhir]

STR adds to melee hit and damage. DEX adds to initiative, AC and to hit for ranged attack. Those are two equally useful abilities. An archer archetype needs additional STR as much as the tank archetype needs DEX; it's nice, but not missed when lacking.

Not quite. Melee fighters typically wear heaver armor than archers, so their bonus to AC from dex is going to be limited (probably to only +1 or +2). Thus limiting their benefits from a high dex.

Archers benefit from up to an 18 str (vs dex 12-14 for a tank) and can benefit from as high a dex as they can get. Their strength bonus is one of the few damage bonuses they get that works beyond 30', until GMW starts kicking in.

Also the tanks can concentrate on maxing one stat with level advancement and bonus items, since a single stat will bump both to hit and damage. With an archer you have to split your efforts between 2 stats or at a minimum require twice as many buffs.

It's not really a question of whether or not anyone cares, but more a question of whether or not your reason has any plausibility.

For kreynolds

Rackhir's Standard Answer to Why Bow and Arrow Bonus Stacking is Not a Munchkin thing (c)

Yes, the ability to stack the damage and to hit bonuses is a nice feature, but let's look at some of the things you give up or can't do in exchange for that.

1) Numerous feat and prestige class skills that do NOT apply and do not have any counterparts in applicable Missile feats.

Lets look at one in particular for a moment, Power attack.

I have a 12th level archer character. Has a buffed attack bonus of 22/22/17/12. So basically he does not miss against most oponents (say AC 20) except on an automatic miss. A melee character with Power Attack (one of THE basic feats for any melee combat characters) can convert that excess attack bonus into damage with Power Attack. That can easily translate into another 5 points of damage per hit or more depending on how lucky you are feeling. I have pretty much stopped looking for ways to increase his attack bonus as a result and are scrounging for ways to increase his damage. There aren't a lot out there.

Whirlwind attack, Cleave/Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes (multiple AoOs) all do not work with missile weapons and have no counterpart in feats for missile weapons (though there is one feat for Arcane Archers that gives an attack against multiple opponents). There are many, many more.

Spring Attack grants immunity to AoOs while doing the move-attack-move combo. Shot on the Run does not.

Missile weapons do not threaten an area. This means numerous feats involving AoOs are useless since you don't threaten opponents.

Unless you are an Order of the Bow Initiate, you draw an AoO whenever you fire the bow with in the threat range of an enemy.

2) Strength bonuses cap out at +4 on Mighty Composite bows and it is an expensive feature to add (about +100 gp per +1) . For melee weapons there is no cap and a "poor" Two-handed-sword user gets a x1.5 Str bonus multiplier irregardless of how much he spent on his sword. On a 12th level character you could easily see a strength of up to about 30 when fully buffed (22 str, barbarian raging with bulls strength on), for a two handed weapon str damage bonus of +15. Remember that they are also getting a +10 to hit out of that stat , unlike with an archer who requires a second high score (dex) to get bonuses to hit.

3) Many of the bonuses to hit and damage for missile weapons do not apply at ranges greater than 30'. By some strange coincidence, this is also a standard move for most creatures. In other words, an archer at optimal range is always going to be within attack range of most creatures.

4) Rate of fire - When my archer is hasted he's getting 5 attacks a round. That means he can empty a single casting of GMW (50 arrows) in 10 rounds of combat (or in other words 1 to 2 combats). Melee weapons don't run out of ammunition.

5) Feats required - If you want to have a character who is decent at being an archer, you need a minimum of about 3 feats - Precise Shot, Point blank Shot, Rapid Shot. No problem if you are a fighter, if you're a paladin, ranger, barbarian. You've got some tough choices.

6) Melee types get their own bonus stacking. Namely Shield and Armor bonuses. How come you never hear anyone complaining about this? Especially since a much wider range of classes can benefit from this advantage than from the bow and arrow bonus stacking. Archer types are also unlikely to be able to benefit from this since it's hard to use a large shield with a long bow.

I could go on, for example there are a number of prestige classes which are either useless (melee oriented abilities) or effectively can't be taken by archery oriented characters.

Remember buffing the bow and the arrows is two 3rd level spells a day (out of maybe 5-6) and if you don't have the mage or cleric (or couldn't talk them into casting it for you that day) you are helpless against DR creatures.

Like Zad said, NONE of this is intended to imply or suggest that Archers are nerfed, useless or ineffective. Put together at all well, they are extremely effective, but you do pay a price and there are some serious limitations you have to live with if you are an archer. One further note, none of my points take into account the Epic Level Handbook or related stuff. Epic level stuff is a whole new ball of wax for both types.