Magic and Democracy

[Galethorn]

If those 17-20 people are legislators, or influential community leaders, though, you're effectively charming a lot more people.

 

[AnonymousOne]

I have a better idea, how about the mages simply seize power themselves? Honestly, who is going to oppose them? The church? perhaps, but the church would probably be much more likely to align with mages in order to further their own ends.

With that much power you don't need to charm politicians, you simply sweep them out of your way. Democracy is over-rated anyway. I think it's someone on ENworld who has a quote by Anatole France "If 51 percent of people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." Mages would certainly adhere to this doctrine.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

If those 17-20 people are legislators, or influential community leaders, though, you're effectively charming a lot more people.

Yes, but Charming only equals friendship - lots of people with radically different political views are able to be friends, or even married, while holding divergent political views. Suggestion is the spell that would tend to cause problems.

In any case, in a film noir-ish environment, government is goign to be corrupt - magic is just one more way to get people over a barrel, just like sex, money, blackmail, etc. I doubt it will change any specifics, it will just change the flavor of those specifics.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I have a better idea, how about the mages simply seize power themselves? Honestly, who is going to oppose them?

I've always felt that the acquisition of magical knowledge required a level of dedication that precluded much involvement in temporal politics. If you spend a lot of time governing a land, you're going to tend to fall behind on your magical studies.

 

[WayneLigon]

Which brings me to my question. How do you have a vibrant liberal democracy when magic can change people's minds so easily? It's possible to use spells like mass charm person, mass suggestion, dominate person, enthrall and fascinate, not to mention bardic music, on the hustings to influence how people vote. What's to stop a candidate casting a few charms when he's on his soapbox? Has anybody done anything like this before and what safeguards were in place (in-game or metagame) to stop this happening? Or did you not stop it happening, and simply have being charmed by a candidate as one of the many interesting quirks of a standard election campaign?

A lot of that would depend on how many subtle ways there are to cast a spell. There would likely have evolved many means of making sure contests and speeches were fair; for instance, if it's common knowledge that such and such a spell lasts five minutes, then there would be a period of silence before any debate, long enough for most spells to wear off.

When I was working on an Urban Arcana game, the PCs were going to be members of Special Unit 2, that division of the FBI that dealt with magical law enforcement ("If we're Special Unit 2, is there a Special Unit 1?" "You're not cleared for that.")

Spells were rated according to the Threat Level color coding system. 'Create Water' was green while 'Audible Glamer' was a blue and 'Fireball' was red. Then you had Black spells which carried an immediate on-site death penalty.

Knowing Dominate Person - not casting it, just knowing it - was a Black offense.

One idea I stole from Witch Hunter Robin was that the cops badges had a permanent Detect Magic in them, which glowed blue in the presense of active magic. The courts and other places used those to see if someone was casting a spell.

 

[Wolfwood2]

OK. Here's a way-out-one.
The campaign I'm working on right now is an update of my previous one. It's a steampunky setting with a healthy dose of film noir, so we have a culture based on the United States during the Depression. None of which is really relevant to my point, which is that the home city, and large tracts of the world, are now governed democratically.
Which brings me to my question. How do you have a vibrant liberal democracy when magic can change people's minds so easily? It's possible to use spells like mass charm person, mass suggestion, dominate person, enthrall and fascinate, not to mention bardic music, on the hustings to influence how people vote. What's to stop a candidate casting a few charms when he's on his soapbox? Has anybody done anything like this before and what safeguards were in place (in-game or metagame) to stop this happening? Or did you not stop it happening, and simply have being charmed by a candidate as one of the many interesting quirks of a standard election campaign?

Well, first I think you have to separate that into two problems. Casting spells on voters versus casting spells on elected officials.

Casting spells on elected officials isn't much different from casting spells on inherited nobles. Anti-charm and anti-dominate effects for people in positions of power have been discussed many times.

Voters on the other hand, are defended by sheer numbers. If 5,000 people are voting in an election, you're talking about an awful lot of spells if you want to influence them all. What's to stop a candidate from casting a few charms? Nothing (well, maybe something) but a few charms won't win an election on their own. I suppose you could try to charm some key people who you think can swing votes, but in the real world candidates often try to bribe key people who can swing votes, to the same net effect.

Even the so-called "mass spells" don't really get all that many people.

Could it be a problem? Sure, just like election fraud and bribery can be a problem in the real world. It's not necessary that the system be perfect, just that the most blatant frauds be prevented. It's a lot easier to steal an election where you're trailing by 1% then to steal an election where you're starting out way behind.

 

[William drake]

OK. Here's a way-out-one.
The campaign I'm working on right now is an update of my previous one. It's a steampunky setting with a healthy dose of film noir, so we have a culture based on the United States during the Depression. None of which is really relevant to my point, which is that the home city, and large tracts of the world, are now governed democratically.
Which brings me to my question. How do you have a vibrant liberal democracy when magic can change people's minds so easily? It's possible to use spells like mass charm person, mass suggestion, dominate person, enthrall and fascinate, not to mention bardic music, on the hustings to influence how people vote. What's to stop a candidate casting a few charms when he's on his soapbox? Has anybody done anything like this before and what safeguards were in place (in-game or metagame) to stop this happening? Or did you not stop it happening, and simply have being charmed by a candidate as one of the many interesting quirks of a standard election campaign?

Its not so hard to figure this out, I just think you need to sit back and put some thought into it.

If things like this existed, there would be plenty of safeguards, and things just forbiddin. Now, even today people brake the law, so there would still be issues of that, but for the most part the government would have countless countermeassures: gov organizations (magic equiv of the FBI, CIA) and others of yourown make.
Heres another thing...what if since you had magic, and such powers...you weren't allowed to enter into direct public service...for you, like for normal people there would be other outletss for one who is magical but patriotic to still serve his or her country: some time of diplomat, or council.
What if being magical was still rare...
What if it was still a secret to 99% of people...except those who need to know, and who would also be the same who placed countermessures into place so such things would be hard pressed to arrise...

(Another though, just cause your playing DnD doesn't mean that in this world every hardcore supper fantasy spell or w/e has to exist. Pick and chose what you like and don't, what would be hard to explain in modern day and what isn't. Keep in mind, that a man who can thrown a marble sized fireball is still throwning a FIRE BALL...so all the crazy spells don't have to be there for this world of yours to have a powerful feel to it.)


Anway, Game On.

 

[Kael]

It might be interesting to have magic be a large part of politics in a fantasy world. The OP stated that his world was based on the Depression era. Politics at that time were far from clean with political machines controlling corrupt politicians. Throw in political party affiliated spell casters using charm and suggestion spells to control voters and candidates or attempting to dispel the spells cast by wizards of opposing parties and you get a dark and gritty political campaign.

 

[STARP_Social_Officer]

It might be interesting to have magic be a large part of politics in a fantasy world. The OP stated that his world was based on the Depression era. Politics at that time were far from clean with political machines controlling corrupt politicians. Throw in political party affiliated spell casters using charm and suggestion spells to control voters and candidates or attempting to dispel the spells cast by wizards of opposing parties and you get a dark and gritty political campaign.

I actually really like that idea. It sounds just perfect. A sort of Tammany Hall with saving throws. Thanks to Kael and to others who suggested something like this.

 

[jdrakeh]

A much more heavy-handed solution, admitedly -- but when I ran my Arduin C&C campaign last year, I slotted CSIO in as Arkham and instituted a special branch of the local guard that was dedicated to curbing overt magic use within the city limits (basically, they were assassins with access to various 'anti-magic' spells). It also set up a decent subplot (which never got uncovered) about political corruption within the ranks of said special branch.