Magic and Democracy

[Nephtys]

The problem with democracy in a dnd world is that all people are not created equal, in fact they are a lot more unequal than people in the real world. With such huge differences to what people are capable of, and with the main source of power being first the ability scores you are born with and second the xp you gain by killing those who oppose you, you don't get an environment conductive to a liberal democracy (or any kind of democracy). The very idea of democracy would seem rediculous in any world based on dnd, the philosophical underpinnings of democracy simply wouldn't exist.

 

[Falkus]

The problem with democracy in a dnd world is that all people are not created equal, in fact they are a lot more unequal than people in the real world. With such huge differences to what people are capable of, and with the main source of power being first the ability scores you are born with and second the xp you gain by killing those who oppose you, you don't get an environment conductive to a liberal democracy (or any kind of democracy). The very idea of democracy would seem rediculous in any world based on dnd, the philosophical underpinnings of democracy simply wouldn't exist.

You do realize that in the actual worlds of DnD themselves, the people (except in certain webcomics) aren't actually aware of stats and experience levels and whatnot?

 

[Nephtys]

You do realize that in the actual worlds of DnD themselves, the people (except in certain webcomics) aren't actually aware of stats and experience levels and whatnot?

Not the stats and levels as such, perhaps. But how could they not be aware of the huge differences in sheer ability? Some people walk around raising the dead or summoning demons, defeating entire armies by themselves, while others routinely get killed by housecats. Equality is impossible, even the fiction of equality is impossible in light of those huge differences.

 

[Falkus]

Not the stats and levels as such, perhaps. But how could they not be aware of the huge differences in sheer ability?

Which is different from the real world how? Does the fact that a Delta Forces operative could probably kill me with his thumb, or that Bill Gates can makes a billions of dollars and I can't prove that equality doesn't exist? The idea of equality is not based on skill or natural ability.

 

[Nephtys]

Which is different from the real world how? Does the fact that a Delta Forces operative could probably kill me with his thumb, or that Bill Gates can makes a billions of dollars and I can't prove that equality doesn't exist? The idea of equality is not based on skill or natural ability.

Yes, there are differences in the real world. Did I say there wasn't? But the delta force operative can easily be killed by a 1st level iraqi sniper or suicide bomber and Bill Gates is rich mostly because he was at the right place at the right time with the right idea, not because he is a superior human being. The same can not be said for high level characters in dnd, and that's just taking the more common pc-races into account. What about dragons? are they equal to goblins? Are Illithid equal to kobolds?
Yes equality is a fiction in the real world, a pretty lie that those who seek power use to keep the ruled content based on some obscure metaphysics, but it shouldn't even exist as an idea in a dnd world.

 

[Falkus]

Yes equality is a fiction in the real world, a pretty lie that those who seek power use to keep the ruled content based on some obscure metaphysics, but it shouldn't even exist as an idea in a dnd world.

I'm not going to continue this discussion, since you are apparently unaware of the history and philosophical backings of Egalitarianism, given your characterization of it as a 'pretty lie'. I suggest that you study it.

 

[Nephtys]

I'm not going to continue this discussion, since you are apparently unaware of the history and philosophical backings of Egalitarianism, given your characterization of it as a 'pretty lie'. I suggest that you study it.

So enlighten me, or not. It doesn't really matter. Just because egalitarianism is a fiction doesn't mean I don't want to believe in it. It is sympathetic, and far better morally than the alternative. It's something to strive for, at the very least.

 

[roguerouge]

Please stop hi-jacking the thread. If you two have to argue about whether neo-authoritarianism or modern democracy is "better" please take it outside... to the appropriate forum or start a new thread. The point of THIS thread was to help the OP design his city.

 

[darthkilmor]

OK. Here's a way-out-one.
The campaign I'm working on right now is an update of my previous one. It's a steampunky setting with a healthy dose of film noir, so we have a culture based on the United States during the Depression. None of which is really relevant to my point, which is that the home city, and large tracts of the world, are now governed democratically.
Which brings me to my question. How do you have a vibrant liberal democracy when magic can change people's minds so easily? It's possible to use spells like mass charm person, mass suggestion, dominate person, enthrall and fascinate, not to mention bardic music, on the hustings to influence how people vote. What's to stop a candidate casting a few charms when he's on his soapbox? Has anybody done anything like this before and what safeguards were in place (in-game or metagame) to stop this happening? Or did you not stop it happening, and simply have being charmed by a candidate as one of the many interesting quirks of a standard election campaign?

Voting booths are in Anti-magic fields?

 

[Umbran]

What's to stop a candidate casting a few charms when he's on his soapbox?

There's a very simple deterrent - "A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack." So, if anyone in the crowd dodges the effect, they know something magic was just attempted. Eventually, folks will figure it out, and become very, very irate with the politician...

Let me ask a question - is charming the populace a particularly efficient way to try to rig an election? Consider that Mass Charm Monster, only handles (2*caster level) in hit dice of creatures. Even for a 20th level caster, that's not a lot of commoners. Mass suggestion has an even lower potential maximum.

Then consider all the various ways folks have to fix elections in the real world - stuffing ballot boxes, bribing election officials, having individuals vote in multiple districts, often as the dead....

Seems to me that charm, specifically, would be far less time and cost effective a way to cheat than many mundane ways to go about it. Why bother charming the populace, when simple coercion or bribery of the folks in charge of counting the results will do?