D&D 5E Magic Items, Gold, and 5e!

[prabe]

I'm left wondering, are these people aware they're playing a roleplaying game?

I'm just . . . if the character doesn't want a house, or a tower, or care about his living standards, or have a charity to support, or some end they want to achieve, why is he character going on adventures at all? And if the character does have goals, well, aren't those goals an obvious use for the gold?

Would this whole "gold is useless" thing be solved if we added a Random Life Goal Table in the "Personality and Background" chapter of the PHB, so that people who don't invent goals for their own character can say, "All right, my character wants to be emperor, and to recruit and equip an army, I'll need this much gold, so . . ."

It is possible for a character's goals to be not gold-soluble, past a certain level of equipment needs. For those characters, there will come a point where they have what they need that can be bought, and more gold won't matter.

 

[Charlaquin]

I'm left wondering, are these people aware they're playing a roleplaying game?

Of course they are. One does not need to spend gold to roleplay though, especially not on things that aren’t relevant to the focus of the game.

I'm just . . . if the character doesn't want a house, or a tower, or care about his living standards, or have a charity to support, or some end they want to achieve, why is he character going on adventures at all?

Well first off, a lot of people prefer to start out with only vague character ideas and let the details develop during play. Second, in adventure path type play, the adventure itself generally provides players with enough motivation to want to go on it - the “adventure hook.” And thirdly, the players want to play D&D, which can’t really happen if their characters aren’t willing to go on adventures.*

And if the character does have goals, well, aren't those goals an obvious use for the gold?

I mean, if their goals are directly adventure related, they don’t have much they can spend gold on that will advance those goals.

Would this whole "gold is useless" thing be solved if we added a Random Life Goal Table in the "Personality and Background" chapter of the PHB, so that people who don't invent goals for their own character can say, "All right, my character wants to be emperor, and to recruit and equip an army, I'll need this much gold, so . . ."

Not at all. Many of the people who find gold to be useless probably wouldn’t use such tables anyway.

*well, one time I played a game - not D&D - with a guy who seemed more interested in starting a business in character than doing any sort of adventuring. It was bizarre to me, he like actively avoided all the obvious adventure hooks in favor of buying and selling livestock.

 

[Shiroiken]

IME most DMs hand out way too much gold at lower levels, or worse, giving out better armors from looting monsters (I'm also guilty of this). Expensive armor is one of the primary money sinks of lower levels, yet too many DMs screw this up. Just looking at the hoards for levels 1-5, a PC in a 5 player group should have about 526 gp. If you factor in individual monster treasure, you're getting about 3/4 of a gp per monster, so afford plate armor by level 5, a character would have to face roughly 1,300 monsters that have treasure. Thus by the DMG, the average character shouldn't realistically be able to afford plate armor until level 7 or so. I don't believe there's a wealth by level chart for 5E that would contradict this, but if so I'd love to have it pointed out.

This also leads to players are far too friendly with money. Chipping in to buy the tank plate armor is the modern equivalent of loaning your friend $10-20,000 on the off chance he'll live long enough to pay it back. I've got some really good friends, but none I'd be willing to take that much of a investment risk on (assuming I even could). Admittedly adventuring is different than IRL, but your buddy is also far, far more likely to die than IRL, leaving you out a good chunk of your investment.

I'm left wondering, are these people aware they're playing a roleplaying game?

Some aren't; they're playing the equivalent of a CRPG, where such "unnecessary" things are ignored. They often ignore things like tracking ammo, supplies, and encumbrance, since they aren't considered fun. While there's nothing wrong with this style of play, they're the ones most likely to lack ideas on how to spend their loot. Those types of games would likely be improved by allowing the buying and selling of magic items

 

[Charlaquin]

If you factor in individual monster treasure, you're getting about 3/4 of a gp per monster,

Wait, have you actually worked this out? I’ve tried to fo so myself quite a few times but there are too many unknown variables. I’d love to see your work on this, if you’re willing to share it.

 

[Charlaquin]

Some aren't; they're playing the equivalent of a CRPG,

Umm… You do know the RPG in CRPG stands for roleplaying game, right?

 

[gorice]

It always puzzles me that many players seem unwilling to leverage 'downtime' advantages into things they can use in play. I mean, gold pays for soldiers! If my character has a small army at their beck and call, you'd better believe I'm going to start throwing my weight around.

I guess this goes against the adventure path/treadmill style of play, as others have noted. I'd be delighted if my players were more willing to bring their 'offscreen' advantages into play, though.

Also, and apropos of nothing, the bards of Athas are also assassins.

 

[Charlaquin]

It always puzzles me that many players seem unwilling to leverage 'downtime' advantages into things they can use in play. I mean, gold pays for soldiers! If my character has a small army at their beck and call, you'd better believe I'm going to start throwing my weight around.

I guess this goes against the adventure path/treadmill style of play, as others have noted.

Yeah, I mean… Hiring an army and sending them to do the adventuring for you could certainly be effective, but it’s kinda optimizing the fun out of the game, isn’t it? Like, I want to go on adventures when I play D&D, not pay other people to do it for me.

 

[Voadam]

Gold in B/X was basically just xp and narrative reward. You had enough gold as a starting character to get plate mail and have the adventuring gear that money can buy for your whole career.

In 1e plate mail was beyond starting funds so you built up to it with looted gold, trading up when you could and recovering from the inevitable rust monster or slime or whatever eating everything you had. It was also worth xp with a neat trade off of selling magic items for gold meant more xp than keeping the power of the item. Training cost ridiculously large amounts of money too if you used that set of DMG rules.

In 2e gold was only an optional way to get xp, and mostly for rogue classes. It still had plate mail beyond starting funds though.

In 3e you had not only plate mail beyond starting funds but all magic items could be crafted for a gold piece price or bought for double the crafting. And this was baked in for an expected gold per level chart to stay competitive with the assumed baseline. Gold mattered hugely for your character combat balance through every level.

In 4e you had the magic item treadmill as well, just with a smaller item tree. Until Dungeon Masters Guide II which had the fantastic inherent bonus optional rule which freed the game from the need for gold to maintain baseline numbers and power. You could be Conan with just a sword and an empty coin purse and be a kick butt epic sword and sorcery character. You could have Warhammer FRP style misery and poverty and have the combat numbers work in D&D instead of wrecking the power and balance of stuff. It was fantastic. I was a big fan.

5e again you cannot start with plate mail, but that is what you spend money on as advancement in the early game. The rules for how much money you should have at various points are very loose.

 

[Lanefan]

Of course they are. One does not need to spend gold to roleplay though, especially not on things that aren’t relevant to the focus of the game.

Well first off, a lot of people prefer to start out with only vague character ideas and let the details develop during play. Second, in adventure path type play, the adventure itself generally provides players with enough motivation to want to go on it - the “adventure hook.”

Thing is, adventure-path type play simply doesn't lend itself to the sort of non-adventuring activities that can burn away wealth. I'll go a step further and say that if the players complaining they've nothing to spend their wealth on are the same players who always play adventure-path campaigns, then on their own heads be it.

And thirdly, the players want to play D&D, which can’t really happen if their characters aren’t willing to go on adventures.*

Agreed. It's what they want to do - if anything - between adventures that makes a lot of the difference here, and whether the game and-or the DM encourage/allow such downtime activity or not.

I mean, if their goals are directly adventure related, they don’t have much they can spend gold on that will advance those goals.

Not as written, but allow even limited purchase and-or sale of magic items with random availability and they'll burn that gold away in a flash.

 

[Lanefan]

IME most DMs hand out way too much gold at lower levels, or worse, giving out better armors from looting monsters (I'm also guilty of this). Expensive armor is one of the primary money sinks of lower levels, yet too many DMs screw this up. Just looking at the hoards for levels 1-5, a PC in a 5 player group should have about 526 gp.

That's pathetic, by the standards I run by!

Next time someone challenges my assertion that 5e is very skimpy with its treasure, can I point them at the post I'm quoting?

If you factor in individual monster treasure, you're getting about 3/4 of a gp per monster, so afford plate armor by level 5, a character would have to face roughly 1,300 monsters that have treasure. Thus by the DMG, the average character shouldn't realistically be able to afford plate armor until level 7 or so. I don't believe there's a wealth by level chart for 5E that would contradict this, but if so I'd love to have it pointed out.

This also leads to players are far too friendly with money. Chipping in to buy the tank plate armor is the modern equivalent of loaning your friend $10-20,000 on the off chance he'll live long enough to pay it back. I've got some really good friends, but none I'd be willing to take that much of a investment risk on (assuming I even could). Admittedly adventuring is different than IRL, but your buddy is also far, far more likely to die than IRL, leaving you out a good chunk of your investment.

Why would you be out (most of) the investment? Unless the plate armour gets destroyed along with its wearer what's to stop you looting it, cleaning it up, and selling it* next time you're by a fighters' guild or some minor noble's castle in order to recoup your investment?

* - or at the very least trading it for items-supplies-considerations of somewhat-equal worth that are more useful to your now-fighterless party.