Magic Items that Grant Feats

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

A few weeks back I posted in the General Forum about a magic item I was researching for my current game; an Armored crab claw arm. I got a little help but some questions still remain and I've discovered new information that makes me doubt some of the suggestions that where given to me.

First the crab arm and what I'd like it to be able to do:
Crab claw shaped armor for left arm
+2 enchanment to str (4000?)
+2 weapon (8000?)
because of size acts as sheild (buckler)
Improved Sunder (for crushing weapons)
Improved Grab and constrict (for crushing enemies)

Two people that posted on the other thread Here
said that the price would be 10,000 gp/feat and another said 25,000/feat (this based off the price of a ring of evasion). I recently noticed the Sylvan Scimitar (priced at 23,657 in gold granting the Cleave feat, also being a +3 weapon). Minusing the enchantment bonus for the +3 it's around 5,000 gold.

I'm looking for some help in trying to come up with something that feels right and any help would be appreciated.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

First the crab arm and what I'd like it to be able to do:
Crab claw shaped armor for left arm
+2 enchanment to str (4000?)
+2 weapon (8000?)
because of size acts as sheild (buckler)
Improved Sunder (for crushing weapons)
Improved Grab and constrict (for crushing enemies)

Two people that posted on the other thread Here
said that the price would be 10,000 gp/feat and another said 25,000/feat (this based off the price of a ring of evasion). I recently noticed the Sylvan Scimitar (priced at 23,657 in gold granting the Cleave feat, also being a +3 weapon). Minusing the enchantment bonus for the +3 it's around 5,000 gold.

A few points:

1. Various books have used different costs for feats/abilities in magic items. There are no hard and fast rules because feats and abilities are not all equal. 10,000 gp is a good starting point, with 5,000 for a feat that's not terribly useful (3.0 Toughness), and much more for feats or abilities that are exceptionally good (Evasion, Improved Grab).

2. Remember that items which have more than one ability have a modifier to the cost. IIRC, the mod is +50% for each additional ability, which will make the item much more expensive. The rationale is that cramming mutiple abilities into one item slot is a huge benefit to the owner of the item.

3. (Strictly IMHO) I would never, never, never allow a PC to have Improved Grab. It's one of the most overpowered abilities creatures have - putting it on a PC is just asking for trouble. As always, it depends on the power level of the campaign, but for the average campaign: not a chance.

That said, based on the amounts listed above, cost would be around:

25,000 Improved Grab
15,000 Improved Sunder (includes +50%)
12,000 +2 Weapon (includes +50%)
6,000 +2 enhancement bonus to Strength (includes +50%)
1,500 acts as shield (assuming +1 to AC, includes +50%)
------
59,500 gp total (about 20% higher than a basic +5 weapon)

 

[Squire James]

The item might occupy more than one slot (I'd say it would occupy weapon/shield, glove, and bracer slots, since one of a pair of the latter confers no benefit). If so, then a number of abilities equal to the number of slots should be normal price.

My assessment is:

"Improved Grab" (ie: free-action or one-way grapple) is too powerful for PC use, but a base 1d8 + Str bonus Constrict ability if a grapple is established (sorta like stronger version of armor spikes) is okay. The PC is grappled in the process unless he takes a -20 to his checks, so he usually can't use it and beat on him with another weapon (except those normally allowed in a grapple, and even then at TWF penalties since his other hand is occupied in an offensive activity).

"Improved Sunder" is no better and no worse than Cleave, and the book seems to declare it 5,000 gp.

Uses shield, glove, and bracer slots
Constrict 1d8: 15,000 gp
+2 Weapon: 8,000 gp
Improved Sunder: 5,000 gp
+2 enchantment bonus to Strength: 6,000 gp (+50% incl)
+1 shield bonus to AC: 1,500 gp (+50% incl)

So my total is 35,500 gp. Still a hefty sum.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Improved Grab is better than any of the standard feats but it is not that much better than Improved Grapple. (Do note that Improved Grapple has what would be considered a dud prereq for most characters.)

PCs are usually only Medium or Large. Grappling is not that huge an advantage.

 

[der_kluge]

The Artificer's Handbook by Mystic Eye Games covers magic items that grant feats. Note that "evasion" is not a feat, but rather a class ability. There are actually rules in there to cover that as well, though I personally do not recommend allowing such things.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

The item might occupy more than one slot (I'd say it would occupy weapon/shield, glove, and bracer slots, since one of a pair of the latter confers no benefit). If so, then a number of abilities equal to the number of slots should be normal price.

My assessment is:

"Improved Grab" (ie: free-action or one-way grapple) is too powerful for PC use, but a base 1d8 + Str bonus Constrict ability if a grapple is established (sorta like stronger version of armor spikes) is okay.

looking through the MM I found most mosters with claws have this abliitiy, that's why I chose it. Ultimatly I'd like to be able to grab an opponent (with no AOO) and do my d8 plus str (I came to the same conclusion about dmg).

The PC is grappled in the process unless he takes a -20 to his checks, so he usually can't use it and beat on him with another weapon (except those normally allowed in a grapple, and even then at TWF penalties since his other hand is occupied in an offensive activity).

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you suggesting that I take a -20 on attacks while grappling?

"Improved Sunder" is no better and no worse than Cleave, and the book seems to declare it 5,000 gp.

Uses shield, glove, and bracer slots
Constrict 1d8: 15,000 gp
+2 Weapon: 8,000 gp
Improved Sunder: 5,000 gp
+2 enchantment bonus to Strength: 6,000 gp (+50% incl)
+1 shield bonus to AC: 1,500 gp (+50% incl)

So my total is 35,500 gp. Still a hefty sum.

1. Various books have used different costs for feats/abilities in magic items. There are no hard and fast rules because feats and abilities are not all equal. 10,000 gp is a good starting point, with 5,000 for a feat that's not terribly useful (3.0 Toughness), and much more for feats or abilities that are exceptionally good (Evasion, Improved Grab).

2. Remember that items which have more than one ability have a modifier to the cost. IIRC, the mod is +50% for each additional ability, which will make the item much more expensive. The rationale is that cramming mutiple abilities into one item slot is a huge benefit to the owner of the item.

I thought that the +2 to str would be +50% not the other ablilities. They would go as the "Multiple similar ablilities" guildlines from the Dmg pg 282. I think that it will take up mulitple slots. I imagined weapon, sheild and glove. I'll also try to knock the price down by restricting use. That's another 30% off the top.

That said, based on the amounts listed above, cost would be around:

25,000 Improved Grab
15,000 Improved Sunder (includes +50%)
12,000 +2 Weapon (includes +50%)
6,000 +2 enhancement bonus to Strength (includes +50%)
1,500 acts as shield (assuming +1 to AC, includes +50%)
------
59,500 gp total (about 20% higher than a basic +5 weapon)

Improved Grab is better than any of the standard feats but it is not that much better than Improved Grapple. (Do note that Improved Grapple has what would be considered a dud prereq for most characters.)

I sorta discounted the prerequist mostly because of the fact that cleave also has one but there is no mention of of power attack in the weapon description.

PCs are usually only Medium or Large. Grappling is not that huge an advantage.

It's seems that most of you think that Improved Grab is little too powerful. Would Improved Grapple be more inline? I do thank you all for the help. This was exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

The Artificer's Handbook by Mystic Eye Games covers magic items that grant feats. Note that "evasion" is not a feat, but rather a class ability. There are actually rules in there to cover that as well, though I personally do not recommend allowing such things.

I don't own the book could you maybe give a general idea of how they work it?

 

[der_kluge]

I don't own the book could you maybe give a general idea of how they work it?

Basically, you assign a level to the feat based on the prerequisites. I don't have the book handy, but I think a 3rd level equivalent prequisite is considered +1 level, so something like "leadership" would be a 3rd level effective feat.

Then there is a spell called "borrow ability" that has to be cast. So, you have to find someone with the feat, and borrow it from them in order to create the item. But, the gist of it is the level equivalent concept gives you some rough idea on how to price it. Without that, it's really arbitrary.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

Basically, you assign a level to the feat based on the prerequisites. I don't have the book handy, but I think a 3rd level equivalent prequisite is considered +1 level, so something like "leadership" would be a 3rd level effective feat.

That sounds like a good idea. I was thinking along those lines before I asked for help. My idea was more along the lines of the metamagic rods with; lesser, normal, and greater.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Two people that posted on the other thread Here
said that the price would be 10,000 gp/feat and another said 25,000/feat (this based off the price of a ring of evasion). I recently noticed the Sylvan Scimitar (priced at 23,657 in gold granting the Cleave feat, also being a +3 weapon). Minusing the enchantment bonus for the +3 it's around 5,000 gold.

Just a point - the sylvan scimitar is, I believe a +3 weapon only, and gains the additional powers ONLY when outdoors AND in a temperate climate, which would give at least a 50% discount on the price to my mind.

Not to mention the fact that you quoted the cost to create it, not the cost to buy one, but used the cost to buy the ability to price it.

At a guess, the +1d6 outdoors in temperate climes is worth at most a +1, probably less.

So - +4 weapon would be 32,000. The weapon costs 47,000, making the price of the cleave feat in very restricted situations a tidy 15,000.

Or about 30,000 if you had it all the time.

So this example just worsens your idea.

Improved grab is far better than improved grapple, because it means that you never waste a grapple attempt. In fact, there's not really much reason NOT to use improved grapple with a -20 on the roll on every single attack you ever make, and if you really want to grapple something or someone, you waste nothing trying.