Magic missile too strong?

[KarinsDad]

Well since the most likely target to fall becasue of a 1st level magic missile spell is indeed a sorcerer or wizard, this is indeed a great protective measure.

Other classes can withstand the damage from a 1st level magic missile (2-5) fairly easily. After the first one they retaliate and then the caster (a sorcerer or wizard) has to suffer the damge from something that causes more damage. And since they are liekly to have a lower AC than most there is an increased shot of them getting hit.

Basically irrelevant.

At first level, an arcane caster's best defense is a good offense. Some arcane casters might indeed be defensively minded with regard to spells: cast Mage Armor and/or cast Shield. But, Magic Missiles from NPCs should be rare enough that the majority of defensive casters choose Mage Armor instead of Shield due to the duration. So, having a Shield up at first level should be very rare.

The majority (if played well) should understand that they only get a few spells per day. So, in order to cast Shield before it will stop Magic Missile, such a caster would have to have a round in which to do that. If he has a round to go defensive, he has a round in which to attack first. 2-5 points of damage is hurtful, but not typically deadly (many PC adventuring arcane casters have a CON of at least 12).

So, yes, this rare situation could occur. But, it typically will not and even if it does, that does not prevent an opponent from casting the Magic Missiles on somebody else.

The fact that Shield can prevent Magic Missiles is a hiccup at real low levels. A blip on the radar and not really that important in the large scheme of things. The vast majority of the time, Magic Missiles hit their intended target at low level (and especially at first level).

Again it is about buying time. A wizard/sorcerer would have to move then cast in order to get past the cover (unless the target stayed within the smoke - always an option). And since we are talking about a low level caster the fact that he has to move will allow someone else to get to him (and target him) easier.

Again, mostly irrelevant.

If a first or low level character is using up a pricey Smoke Stick, they are doing it for a life or death reason. Typically, because they are seriously injured. A Cure Light Wounds potion in that situation works better than a Smoke Stick. And smoke is not really going to stop other opponents from entering the smoke and still dispatching the character.

Also, your scenarios here assume that the user of the Smoke Stick KNOWS that he will be targeted by some spell. Smoke Stick will not stop Color Spray or Burning Hands. So, the utility of such a tactic is limited at best (maybe so that a Rogue can hide in the concealment). Considering that the target can still be attacked with Magic Missile anyway (only not from some directions), it's hardly what one would call a worthwhile defense. Mostly, it is a waste of an action since most of the time, an arcane opponent could just target someone else instead (or area effect the smoke).

Actions matter in the game. Using them to hide behind spells or concealment works well against archers. It does not work well against spells.


PS. On this note, I have had some players in my campaigns often not know what to do. So, they will move their character, or delay, or some other basically non-productive action. It can turn a moderately difficult encounter into a deadly one. Sure, there are times when delaying is helpful or even necessary. But, most of the time, a group's best chance of success is when all PCs are being productive in some manner. Casting Shield spells, hiding behind Tower Shields, and hiding behind smoke are generally not very productive (they can be productive situationally dependent, but typically, there are better actions that can be done). Even firing a Light Crossbow at a low armored opponent for a Wizard out of spells is typically better than hiding behind a Tower Shield.

 

[Henry]

But then there's the natural 20 (or 19 with improved crit) that DOUBLES the damage of the attack spell. There's nothing like rolling 80d6 for a critical disintegrate.

Our poor DM last week witnessed a 34d6 disintegrate, and we thought he was going to have a heart attack. But that nat-20 bunch o'dice is nice, but requires some pretty good luck, and improved crit is not likely to be taken by any straight mages until 16th level, or mixed-mages until 12th level or so.

 

[irdeggman]

Tower shield says: "The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding." This explicitly eliminates a tower shield's cover as protection from targeted spells. Is magic missile targeted? Yes: "Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart."

QED

True enough.

I was reading the info in magic missile spell description.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

Which doesn't say the same thing, so while it is probably a reasonable house-rule that a tower shield provides cover against a magic missile it is not strictly per the RAW.

Most other targeted spells do not work the same way as does magic missile they are more along the lines of "touch" type spells or or "charm person" type ones.

 

[KarinsDad]

Most other targeted spells do not work the same way as does magic missile they are more along the lines of "touch" type spells or or "charm person" type ones.

Most touch spells and charm person type spells target a creature exactly like Magic Missile.

Target: Creature

No real difference (except for number of opponents).

 

[Votan]

Orb of Force and Enervation are both ranged touch attacks. Her dex isn't great, she doesn't have precise shot, and she would be hitting her allies more often than is reasonable. Both are out.

Evard's Black Tentacles would be nice for battlefield control, but again if the opponant is already engaged in combat, it would just hurt allies as well.

Magic Missle is one of those few spells you can use in almost any tactical situation. If you can see the opponant at all, you will damage them unless it's an issue of spell resistance or they have shield up or a magic item that stops magic missles specifically or something like that.

I don't believe that you can hit your allies by mistake using the core D&D rules but I am willing to be mistaken. I thought that the rule (at least as I use it) was -4 for firing into melee and -4 if you have friend between you and the target (soft cover) for a total of -8 when firing from behind a fighter into melee.

Magic Missle peaks in power at 9th level doing 5d4+5 points of damage. Spell Resistance affects it.

Orb of Force has the same range, does 9d6 points of damage (double) and ignores spell resistence. You require a ranged touch spell but it is actually a better spell if there are things like Drow around.

It's a good spell, no doubt, but it hardly breaks the things around it. At medium levels (say 5) spells with damage per level are doing more damage (Burning hands averages double damage from levels 2 to 5 and can hit multiple targets).

At high levels (say 18) is it really worth casting this spell instead of "Wail of the Banshee"? Or a Quickened Disintegrate? Do you 18th level casters actually miss touch ACs all that often?

Metamagic can improve the spell and it is rarely a waste of an action but that makes the spell balanced and scalable.

 

[harmyn]

Orb of Force and Enervation are both ranged touch attacks. Her dex isn't great, she doesn't have precise shot, and she would be hitting her allies more often than is reasonable. Both are out.

Evard's Black Tentacles would be nice for battlefield control, but again if the opponant is already engaged in combat, it would just hurt allies as well.

Magic Missle is one of those few spells you can use in almost any tactical situation. If you can see the opponant at all, you will damage them unless it's an issue of spell resistance or they have shield up or a magic item that stops magic missles specifically or something like that.

Most Wizard spells don't require a to-hit roll, just a saving throw. Magic Missile is a potent spell, but its reasonable for 1st level too I would say. Its damage is minimal, if guaranteed. I have seen it used over many levels, but I have never been too worried about it. Now at the high end of characters though Magic Missile can become a wee bit problematic again if the person lacks a Brooch of Shielding or the protection of a Shield Spell. If a Wizard of level 17 casts Quickened-Empowered-Magic-Missile (level 8 equivalent), and Energy Substitution (sonic) Delayed Blast Fireball and actually makes the Save in one round, he would deal an average of 59 pts of damage (89 pts if save is failed) Now if you follow that up next round with another Quickened-Empowered Magic Missile (7th level equivalent) for 25 pts damage on average and then finish that same round off with Power Word Kill your average damage would guarantee the death of anyone living target with 184 hit points or less. If they failed their save against DBF then any character with 215 hit points or less would be dead. Four spells, all of higher level, cast over only 2 rounds one allows a single save and requires no to-hit roll and target is dead if their Hit Points aren't sufficiently high (of course this is better if the wizard in round 1 lets his Cleric buddy cast Harm first then skips straight to his round 2 quickened spell combo).

As for how hard it is to fire into melee combat with a ranged touch attack, I have a good deal of experience from one the group I DM. I have a player playing a Warlock who has finally come around to realizing that while handy, Precise Shot isn't really important to Ranged Touch Attacks. Same is basically true for Wizards and Sorcerers after about 6th level. Now keep in mind I didn't give the fighter below a magic sword which he would probably have, but I did give him Weapon Focus. The wizard also has no additional bonuses, but could easily be under the effect of Cat's Grace which would give him a +2 to hit.

Lemme 'splain what I mean.....

Wizard Base Attack at Levels 6/7 = +3; Not a very good Dex for a Wizard (say 12/13) = +1; -4 firing into melee Total Attack Bonus: +0
Wizard Base Attack at Levels 8/9 = +4; Not a very good Dex for a Wizard (say 12/13) = +1; Total Attack Bonus: +1
Total Attack Levels 6-9 Fighter with a Strength of 16 and Weapon Focus swinging sword = +10, +11, +12, +13

CR 6 Monster Examples
Annis (Hag) Touch AC 10; L6 Wizard needs to roll a 9+
Annis (Hag) Regular AC 20; L6 Fighter needs to roll a 10+
Chain Devil (Kyton) Touch AC 12; L7 Wizard needs to roll a 12+
Chain Devil (Kyton) Regular AC 20; L7 Fighter needs to roll a 9+
Dragon, Blue, Young, Touch AC: 10; L6 Wizard needs to roll a 10+
Dragon, Blue, Young, Regular AC: 21; L6 Fighter needs to roll a 11+
Girallon Touch AC 12; L6 Wizard needs to roll a 11+
Girallon Regular AC 16; L6 Fighter needs to roll a 6+

CR 7 Monster Examples
Bulette Touch AC 10; L7 Wizard needs to roll a 10+
Bulette Regular AC 22; L7 Fighter needs to roll a 11+
Dragon, Red, Young, Touch AC 9; L7 Wizard needs to roll a 9+
Dragon, Red, Young, Regular AC 21; L7 Fighter needs to roll a 10+
Giant, Hill Touch AC 8; L7 Wizard needs to roll a 8+
Giant, Hill Regular AC 20; L7 Fighter needs to roll a 9+
Medusa Touch AC 12; L7 Wizard needs to roll a 12+ (but can avoid the gaze effect because of range)
Medusa Regular AC 15; L7 Fighter needs only a +4 if they make a Fort Save, +8 if averting their gaze

CR 8 Monster Examples
Bodak Touch AC 12; L8 Wizard needs to roll a 11+ (but can avoid gaze effect because of range)
Bodak Regular AC 20; L8 Fighter needs to roll a 9+
Giant, Stone Touch AC 11; L8 Wizard needs to roll a 10+
Giant, Stone Regular AC 25; L8 Fighter needs to roll a 13+
Gorgon Touch AC 9; L8 Wizard needs to roll a 8+
Gorgon Regular AC 20; L9 Fighter needs to roll a 9+

Monstrous Spider, Gargantuan Touch AC 9; L8 Wizard needs to roll a 8+
Monstrous Spider, Gargantuan Regular AC 19; L9 Fighter needs to roll a 8+

CR 9 Monster Examples
Delver Touch AC 9; L9 Wizard needs to roll a 8+
Delver Regular AC 24; L9 Fighter needs to roll a 11+
Dragon, Black, Young Adult Touch AC 9; L9 Wizard needs to roll a 8+
Dragon, Black, Yound Adult Regular AC 24; L9 Fighter needs to roll a 11+
Giant, Frost Touch AC 8; L9 Wizard needs to roll a 7+
Giant, Frost Touch AC 21; L9 Fighter needs to roll a 8+
Nessian Warhound (hellhound) Touch AC 11; L9 Wizard needs to roll a 10+
Nessian Warhound (hellhound) Ranged AC 24; L9 Wizard needs to roll a 11+

 

[Infiniti2000]

But that nat-20 bunch o'dice is nice, but requires some pretty good luck, and improved crit is not likely to be taken by any straight mages until 16th level, or mixed-mages until 12th level or so.

Part of this discussion is on the warlock, and I'd say improved crit is much more desirable for a warlock than a wizard/sorcerer. All of his attacks are ranged touch!

I don't believe that you can hit your allies by mistake using the core D&D rules but I am willing to be mistaken.

Only in a grapple or a cover rules variant can you hit your allies with a non-area spell.

 

[DaveMage]

"The Shaman, standing nearly a hundred feet away, mutters a chant and slashes at the air in front of him with an oddly shaped ceremonial dagger. With each slash, you feel a stinging, burning cut drawn deep across your chest. Even though your armor hasn't even been scratched, you can feel the blood beneath it dribbling down your chest and soaking into your tunic. Take... [DICE ROLL] ...12 points of damage."

"Doesn't he get a saving throw?" asks the party wizard.
"No," I reply.
"But you didn't make an attack roll," he wonders.
"That's right," I answer.
"So..." he concludes, incredulously, "It's a spell that did 12 points of damage from a hundred feet away without requiring an attack roll or a saving throw, and it bypasses armor?"
"You got it," I confirm.
"Wow, he says to the other players, "I hope he's got that spell on a scroll or something... I've GOT to scribe that into my spellbook."

Without explicitly knowing which spell it was, and only seeing the end results, the player was boggling... Until I told him that it was just a magic missile, it was a must have spell that seemed too good to be true.

You've told this story before and it remains the coolest implementation of creativity within the rules that I have ever seen on these boards.

 

[irdeggman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggmanWell since the most likely target to fall becasue of a 1st level magic missile spell is indeed a sorcerer or wizard, this is indeed a great protective measure.Other classes can withstand the damage from a 1st level magic missile (2-5) fairly easily. After the first one they retaliate and then the caster (a sorcerer or wizard) has to suffer the damge from something that causes more damage. And since they are likely to have a lower AC than most there is an increased shot of them getting hit.


Basically irrelevant.

Why is it irrelevant? They are the classes that are most likely to be adversely affected by a magic missile at low levels. Other than the potentially dropping to 0 or less hit points there is also the disrupting spells potential. So in reality they are the classes that should be the most focus when talking about how balanced a magic missile is.

At first level, an arcane caster's best defense is a good offense. Some arcane casters might indeed be defensively minded with regard to spells: cast Mage Armor and/or cast Shield. But, Magic Missiles from NPCs should be rare enough that the majority of defensive casters choose Mage Armor instead of Shield due to the duration. So, having a Shield up at first level should be very rare.

So if it is that rare then the spell being overpowering isn’t really an issue I guess and this entire thread is pretty much mote.

The majority (if played well) should understand that they only get a few spells per day. So, in order to cast Shield before it will stop Magic Missile, such a caster would have to have a round in which to do that. If he has a round to go defensive, he has a round in which to attack first. 2-5 points of damage is hurtful, but not typically deadly (many PC adventuring arcane casters have a CON of at least 12).

Purely an opinion and very less likely for an elf character (-2 to Con). Many adventuring arcane casters also have a STR of at least 12 – but neither is their prime attribute and as such, logic would dictate that neither score should be very high. Even with a 12 CON a first level wizard can be dropped to 0 hit points by a magic missile (2-5 points of damage per missile)

So, yes, this rare situation could occur. But, it typically will not and even if it does, that does not prevent an opponent from casting the Magic Missiles on somebody else.

The fact that Shield can prevent Magic Missiles is a hiccup at real low levels. A blip on the radar and not really that important in the large scheme of things. The vast majority of the time, Magic Missiles hit their intended target at low level (and especially at first level).

Purely a matter of opinion. Shield was designed specifically to counter magic missiles and to dismiss it as a mere hiccup fails to look at the balance of the overall system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggmanAgain it is about buying time. A wizard/sorcerer would have to move then cast in order to get past the cover (unless the target stayed within the smoke - always an option). And since we are talking about a low level caster the fact that he has to move will allow someone else to get to him (and target him) easier.


Again, mostly irrelevant.

If a first or low level character is using up a pricey Smoke Stick, they are doing it for a life or death reason. Typically, because they are seriously injured. A Cure Light Wounds potion in that situation works better than a Smoke Stick. And smoke is not really going to stop other opponents from entering the smoke and still dispatching the character.

Again why is this irrelevant? Survival is what it is all about, especially for characters with low hit points (wizards and sorcerers).

Also, your scenarios here assume that the user of the Smoke Stick KNOWS that he will be targeted by some spell. Smoke Stick will not stop Color Spray or Burning Hands. So, the utility of such a tactic is limited at best (maybe so that a Rogue can hide in the concealment). Considering that the target can still be attacked with Magic Missile anyway (only not from some directions), it's hardly what one would call a worthwhile defense. Mostly, it is a waste of an action since most of the time, an arcane opponent could just target someone else instead (or area effect the smoke).

True enough. If surprised any party is in trouble regardless of whether or not the opponents are using magic missiles or not.

If the caster is close enough to use burning hands or color spray then why is the caster using magic missile?

Actions matter in the game. Using them to hide behind spells or concealment works well against archers. It does not work well against spells.


PS. On this note, I have had some players in my campaigns often not know what to do. So, they will move their character, or delay, or some other basically non-productive action. It can turn a moderately difficult encounter into a deadly one. Sure, there are times when delaying is helpful or even necessary. But, most of the time, a group's best chance of success is when all PCs are being productive in some manner. Casting Shield spells, hiding behind Tower Shields, and hiding behind smoke are generally not very productive (they can be productive situationally dependent, but typically, there are better actions that can be done). Even firing a Light Crossbow at a low armored opponent for a Wizard out of spells is typically better than hiding behind a Tower Shield.

Mostly accurate, IMO. But this is predicated off of personal experience in a set group (or groups) and does not really address the overall argument – so I guess it is really irrelevant.

Casting a shield spell is really important for a wizard who is not wearing armor and needs to be “productive”. It is probably one of his best low level protective spells and when combined with mage armor offers a substantial amount of protection for a character that really needs it.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I didn't mean to say that it's broken, I think not, I think it's balanced in 3.0 and actually quite weak in 3.5 (because of feats and spells nerfing). You are probably one of the very few who think that the Sorcerer is too good

What I guess I meant to say is that I think your original point was valid and I guess I should have made a seperate comment stating that I thought sorcerers where broken.

I think the ability to spontaneously cast any spell, with meta magics to boot, make them very dangerous. Ditching your familiar to gain meta-magic mastery, as per the PHBII, makes them even meaner. Sure they have very few spells known, but like I said, if you have half a brain, you can make the most of the spells you do choose.