Magic missile too strong?

[DM-Rocco]

Well, I've had seen many more characters doing nothing except swinging the same weapon every_single_combat_multiple_times than sorcerers doing the same with MM. But you don't think that the attack action is overpowered right?

Lmao, good point

I too think that Sorcerers (and Warmages) are very good compared to Wizards (I do not think they are broken). That is, if the character takes metamagic feats. If not, then the character is just ok.

Don't forget the Dread Necromancer too. Mass Harm, yikes.

Yes, I know that much. But what is the damage by level for the EB? Does its damage make up for its miss chance, compared to MM? And the fact that it is unlimited, versus the sorcerer's limited spell slots? A sorcerer has at most 7 MM per day (not counting using higher level slots), for 17.5 damage a round. With a 50% chance to hit, a warlock would need a 10d6 EB to equal the damage per round, for unlimited times.

I don't know how a warlock's EB scales up. I'm just asking that someone look at the comparison closer than just resting the whole thing on "ranged touch attack". I'm not saying EB equals or betters MM, I'm just thinking it deserves some attention, rather than being dismissed off hand.

Quasqueton

I think they go up every other level by 1d6 for a max of 9d6 at higher levels, either 19 or 20. But, don't forget, you can add invocations directly to your EB. I don't know all of the different effects you can add, but you will never be doing just *d6 damage per hit.

But then there's the natural 20 (or 19 with improved crit) that DOUBLES the damage of the attack spell. There's nothing like rolling 80d6 for a critical disintegrate.

Okay, I forgot about the crit factor, another strike. So, warlocks get unlimited blasts topping out at 9d6, no save, its critable and you can add other effects to your blasts through invocation, which correct me if I'm wrong, are also unlimited.

Hmm, not broken at all.

 

[Mistwell]

Most Wizard spells don't require a to-hit roll, just a saving throw.

It's actually split almost 50-50 for offense spells. And the designers did that intentionally. You have an bunch of ray spells and energy spells like ray of enfeeblement, exhaustion, frost, scorching ray, enervation, etc., and those are ranged touch attacks. And then you have the saving throw spells, such as fireball and charm person. I think you will find it's split fairly well.

Magic Missile is a potent spell, but its reasonable for 1st level too I would say.

Which is why I've been focusing on the levels where magic missle is powerful, which is 5th to 9th levels.

Its damage is minimal, if guaranteed. I have seen it used over many levels, but I have never been too worried about it. Now at the high end of characters though Magic Missile can become a wee bit problematic again if the person lacks a Brooch of Shielding or the protection of a Shield Spell.

If 99% of your NPCs DON'T lack a brooch of shielding and an already-up shield spell, you're probably metagaming as a DM. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not the norm either.

As for how hard it is to fire into melee combat with a ranged touch attack, I have a good deal of experience from one the group I DM. I have a player playing a Warlock who has finally come around to realizing that while handy, Precise Shot isn't really important to Ranged Touch Attacks. Same is basically true for Wizards and Sorcerers after about 6th level. Now keep in mind I didn't give the fighter below a magic sword which he would probably have, but I did give him Weapon Focus. The wizard also has no additional bonuses, but could easily be under the effect of Cat's Grace which would give him a +2 to hit.

Then I again think your game is a bit off from the average. Ranged touch attacks should be missing around a third of the time from your typical sorceror or wizard. If you are running a high powered game (32 point ability score array, or easily available magic items to boost attacks) then that will change. But in your typical 25 point ability array with the highest stat in your spellcasting ability and second highest in constitution, your sorceror or wizard should be missing about a third of their ranged touch attacks, or at best a quarter. If they are hitting almost every time, you've varied from the average game.

Magic missle always hits, with no save, and it's a force attack so nothing has resistance or immunity (beyond spell resistance which applies to almost all spells, and those that do not are often touted as being the "other" overpowered spells like the orb spells). Even a 20th level fighter has a chance of missing, and most mid to high level opponants have resistances and immunities to the energy spells like fireball.

 

[KarinsDad]

Casting a shield spell is really important for a wizard who is not wearing armor and needs to be “productive”. It is probably one of his best low level protective spells and when combined with mage armor offers a substantial amount of protection for a character that really needs it.

Shield and Mage Armor are fine for a fighting first level Wizard. But, it does take up two of his two (or three) spells and makes him mostly worthless except as a combatant. If he is doing that, Magic Missile is the least of his worries.

And given the choice, I do not know of anyone who would take Shield over Mage Armor at lower levels unless the player knew the character would be fighting an arcane spell casting opponent.


I think you are grossly overestimating the value of a Shield spell against Magic Missile in the vast majority of situations since the vast majority of opponents (in most campaigns) do not have Magic Missile, nor do the vast majority of characters in a game have a Shield spell available.


Your original point with the Shield spell, Tower Shield, and Smoke Stick examples was that Magic Missile is a balanced spell because these defenses exist. Since most characters do not have the Shield spell, the Tower Shield does not stop Magic Missile at all, and a Smoke Stick can at best delay it for few rounds (and not necessarily for a single round), I do not think your original point had much weight to it since these defenses are mostly worthless and minimally few and far between.

In the big picture of the game, these defenses hardly help at all against Magic Missile. Your balance claim is like saying that a defense against getting bombed in Iraq by the U.S. is that one day out of the month, you will not be in Iraq. That one day doesn't really help on the other days of the month if an attack does occur. If you do not use or have a Smoke Stick or a Shield spell (which is true for the vast majority of characters and situations), you can still get Magic Missiled.


PS. A smart tactic is to use Magic Missile against ant seriously wounded opponent at most levels. They tend to have no defense (except maybe SR at higher levels) and if you drop them, then you shift the number of opponent vs. allies odds towards your side's favor. Targeting a spell caster is usually only decisive if he is already wounded or he is in the midst of casting a spell. Except at first level, most spell casters at most (equivalent) levels have enough hit points to absorb two Magic Missile spells, even Empowered ones.

 

[Infiniti2000]

And given the choice, I do not know of anyone who would take Shield over Mage Armor at lower levels unless the player knew the character would be fighting an arcane spell casting opponent.

I would, especially at lower levels. Shield is better than mage armor except for the duration. The only benefit of mage armor is the duration and at low levels that is rendered largely useless, except in dungeon crawls. The encounters will not necessarily be spaced that closely together making both shield and mage armor a single combat spell, advantage to shield. Bracers of armor are also more likely going to be available and are a better option for a wizard not wanting to tie up a hand (somewhat) with a mithral shield.

All in all, I just want to point out that it's more of a toss-up than you give it credit for.

 

[Mistwell]

What I guess I meant to say is that I think your original point was valid and I guess I should have made a seperate comment stating that I thought sorcerers where broken.

I think the ability to spontaneously cast any spell, with meta magics to boot, make them very dangerous. Ditching your familiar to gain meta-magic mastery, as per the PHBII, makes them even meaner. Sure they have very few spells known, but like I said, if you have half a brain, you can make the most of the spells you do choose.

PHBII options and non-core books aside, you get that sorcerors learn their spells later than wizards, right? That they cannot use metamagic very well due to the full round casting time? That they get very few spells known and MUST make choices that WILL hurt the character (with any level of intelligence, you cannot squeeze blood from a turnip, nor can you get the full array of useful spells from that few choices)? That they get a LOT fewer feats than wizards? That their key casting ability is less useful in general than the wizards key casting ability? That wizards get to specialize in schools to increase their spell slots to about where sorceror's are at? That Wizatds can still write almost any spell into their spell book and leave slots open to memorize a new spell in the middle of the day? That wizards can use spellbooks found on opponants but sorcerors cannot?

To put it a different way, why do you think virtually every D&D game designer, and almost all players and DMs, disagree with you on this subject?

 

[Mistwell]

When drafting the new 3.0 rules by the way, the designers mentioned that they tried to change magic missle to a d6 damage base with a save for 1/2. The playtesters apparantly said they thought it was more balanced, but hated it anyway because it wasn't the flavor of D&D. So back it went to auto-hitting with no save.

I don't think magic missle breaks the game. I just think it's overpowered and that D&D shouldn't have ANY spells that auto-hit with no save.

 

[irdeggman]

Your original point with the Shield spell, Tower Shield, and Smoke Stick examples was that Magic Missile is a balanced spell because these defenses exist. Since most characters do not have the Shield spell, the Tower Shield does not stop Magic Missile at all, and a Smoke Stick can at best delay it for few rounds (and not necessarily for a single round), I do not think your original point had much weight to it since these defenses are mostly worthless and minimally few and far between.

Actually my original point was all of the following:

Magic Missile is a very useful spell but due to its limitations it is roughly "balanced" with other spells.

True it "automatically hits" targets that don't have total cover. (Don't forget that part - you have to be able to "see" the target in order to hit it with a magic missile and total cover would negate the line of effect). But a caster only gets 1 missile fer every 2 levels up to a maximum of 5. So a 1st level caster only has so many 1st level spell slots he can use for spells.

The following (very commonly available things at 1st level) will negate a magic missle.

Shield spell

Tower Shield

Smoke stick

So, while it is IMO a "must have" first level spell it is not overpowered in any means.

You selectively chose part of the total and tried to make it "my point".

The point I was trying to make that all of the things I listed work towards making it balanced.

To sum up:

A caster gets a limited number of missiles to cast (1 + 1 every other level up to a max of 5).

A caster has a limited number of spells to use. A sorcerer knows few and must decide which to "learn". Hence the caster is using up his major resources to cast magic missile instead of other spells.

There are spells and tactics available at 1st level that can be used to negate magic missiles. {You may disagree with how valuable they are, but they do exist and are available. SO it is not like the spell can't be defeated at all.}

 

[Mistwell]

The only benefit of mage armor is the duration and at low levels that is rendered largely useless, except in dungeon crawls.

You say "except in dungeon crawls" as if it's the same tone as "except during a blue moon" as opposed to "except when the sun shines". It's DUNGEONS and dragons. We all know that the majority of adventures take place in a dungeon, and while some adventures do not they are more the exception than the rule. In your average game, the duration of mage armor will last through all or almost all of the combat encounters in that days adventure. Even an hour long spell will last through most or all of the combats, given the dungeon-bias of this game.

Or are you really saying that in your own games hr/lev and rd/lev usually mean the same thing? I think this is one of those times where Infinit2k is playing devils advocate and hoping nobody notices

 

[Grog]

The way I knew Magic Missle was overpowered was when our party sorceror, for the first ten levels, used it almost every single combat, usually multiple times.

In fact she used it so often that she found the need to calculate how many times she could use it, assuming she was converting higher level spell slots into magic missles.

She ROUTINELY used 4th level spell slots to cast magic missle.

Your sorceror was casting Magic Missile instead of Confusion (stand back and watch your enemies kill each other), Polymorph (arguably the best buff spell in the entire game), Eneveration (1d4 negative levels is nasty, especially vs. spellcasters), Evard's Black Tentacles (grapple multiple opponents at once), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (take one meele-type enemy out of the fight with a Reflex save spell), Greater Invisibility (keep yourself safe or give the rogue unlimited sneak attack potential), or Stoneskin (DR 10/adamantine is huge at 8th-9th level)?

If I was grouped with a sorceror who did that, either he or I would be looking for a new party at the end of the adventure. There are so many things you can do with a 4th level spell slot that are vastly more effective than casting a Magic Missile (and I'm even just limiting myself to core spells here) that I really have to wonder about someone who would use them for that purpose over and over again.

 

[Pbartender]

Wow! That is quite possibly the best description of magic missile I have ever seen (and I've been gaming since 1977). It evokes traditional imagery of a sorcerer or a witch rather than a cowboy. In fact it reminds me of the scene from Robin Hood & the Sorcerer (pilot episode of the 1984 British series) when the Baron de Belleme strikes with his sword from a distance.

Thanks Pbartender for the imagery. I will use this in my next game!

Thanks, I'm glad you like it... As a DM, I take pride in my alternate descriptions.

But... I can't honestly take full credit for it. I originally stole the idea from the movie Red Sonja.