Magic Missile

[Scalding]

There's a thread on the new errata, and I read the first couple pages of it, but I really just want to discuss Magic Missile here.

First, I really dislike the new changes. I'll just leave that out in the open so I don't surprise anyone.

Making it auto-hit was... odd, but Ok, I guess. So it's now different from every other attack power (let me know if I missed anything, I'd feel better if I'm wrong about that). A Master's Wand of Magic Missile is a bit more exciting now: Free, guaranteed push!

The thing that I find really unforgivable is changing the damage to {2,3,5} + Int modifier. Even with the Special text that allows you to add the implement bonus to damage, it's just not cool. Look, if it were even 1d4, then:

1. No need for the Special text line.
2. Dual Implement Spellcasting would work with it. Does it now? I don't know.
3. Force Wand would work with it. Now? I don't know.
4. Petrified Orbs would work with it. Similarly, other implements that are Deadly or Energized (Force). Now? I don't know.
5. Bracers of the Perfect Shot would work with it. Now? I don't know.
6. Other stuff that I'm forgetting. Now? Who knows?

See, with it being a roll, all those things added. The rule used to be that if it wasn't a roll, none of that added.

So what's the new rule?

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Hey WotC, if any of you folk are reading this, what's the deal? You fire the guy who makes reasonable errata and then do this? Who gets fired for this one?

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[DracoSuave]

No, you don't get to add any of that stuff.


Yes, there's a reason it's not a damage roll any more... that reason being 'you don't get to add any of that stuff.'

If you could, it would be the most powerful at-will for wizards in the game, and it'd be a reason to paragon multi for sorcerers.

 

[Scalding]

Well, in any given set of at-wills there will always be one that is most powerful, so that is not a valid reason to do or not do anything. I think you might mean that even +1d4 + items + feats is overpowered, and I think that's not sound either.

Why? Because it's all in how you build the character. If you make a wizard that's heavily focused on force damage, then magic missile will undoubtedly be your most powerful at-will. But if you make a wizard that's fire based (as the one in my group is), then magic missile is very underpowered.

That said, I agree with your interpretation that you don't get to add those things, but that significantly weakens magic missile. It's not like it missed often before.

Now, it's just broken. Not in the overpowered, game-breaking way, in the it-doesn't-work way. It'll hit, but do so much less damage than other powers that it's not worth it unless the enemy is outside range 10, and you just have to go all AT&T on the BBEG.

And now every wizard who has Bracers of Perfect Shot (which should be most of them) might as well hang their bracers up and go home.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, in any given set of at-wills there will always be one that is most powerful, so that is not a valid reason to do or not do anything. I think you might mean that even +1d4 + items + feats is overpowered, and I think that's not sound either.

+1d4 + items + feats means that the difference between that power, and... say... Ray of Frost... is that in exchange for having the slowed condition, you trade it for applying the damage directly, without any defenses contributing whatsoever.

And, when you have a power with 'Arcane' and 'Effect: roll damage' you have a sorcerer's best friend. That becomes better than any single target at-will a sorcerer can muster.

See, when you get to a certain point of static damage bonuses, comparing 1d4 and 1d6 is nonsense... it's like comparing 34 damage that hits half the time to 33 damage that never misses....

...there simply is no comparison possible.

Why? Because it's all in how you build the character. If you make a wizard that's heavily focused on force damage, then magic missile will undoubtedly be your most powerful at-will. But if you make a wizard that's fire based (as the one in my group is), then magic missile is very underpowered.

scorching burst, 1d6+stuff. Magic missle, in your version, 1d4+the same stuff-3, and never misses.

And force resistance is hardly ever a factor, so the other fire advantage 'can pierce resistance' is a non-factor.

That said, I agree with your interpretation that you don't get to add those things, but that significantly weakens magic missile. It's not like it missed often before.

But it did miss... and generally 40% of the time. Tossing in a damage roll would put its damage output through the roof.

Imagine for a moment, a Goliath Greatweapon prowess sorcerer with 20 strength, a deadly staff of ruin +3, staff fighting, dual implement, paragon path'd into this power, those bracers of archery.... At paragon, that's 23 strength... 14 intellegence...

1d4+2+6+3+3+3+2+4 = 1d4+23 points of damage... per round... that you cannot stop. Contrast with... oh... 1d8+19 points of damage with 50% hit rate.

That's a LOT of damage output. Never underestimate that 'auto hit' thing.

Now, it's just broken. Not in the overpowered, game-breaking way, in the it-doesn't-work way. It'll hit, but do so much less damage than other powers that it's not worth it unless the enemy is outside range 10, and you just have to go all AT&T on the BBEG.

This is a statement without evidence. Show the math.

At level 1, hitting average reflex of 13, average Int of 14, you have:

2d4+4 damage = 9 damage average, 9 to hit= 60% probability

vs

2+4 damage = 6 damage average, 100% probability.

9 X 60% = 5.4 damage.

6 > 5.4 damage.

Saying something does more damage requires more than simply looking at -potential- damage... you actually have to take the probability of doing that damage into account.

And in your analysis, you clearly have not.

And now every wizard who has Bracers of Perfect Shot (which should be most of them) might as well hang their bracers up and go home.

Eh. Staff of Magic Missile was just as good, and had a bit more utility. And... well.. it has even MORE now.

And any wizard who made magic missile a go-to spell used it with the Master's Wand to get a push effect. That's only more powerful now.

And any wizard who wanted to maximize damage used a Staff of Ruin and left the bracers at home anyways... Staff of Ruin does comparable damage with all his powers.

If you're making general statements about optimized magic missile wizards, use optimal items in your statement, please and thank you.

 

[Piratecat]

I've closed the other thread, which was badly off topic. Carry on about Magic Missile here!

And those rumors that I'm changing the status of people who don't like the spell are totally overstated.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, magic missile was traditionally the wizard's faithful standby; the low-level damage spell that never missed, didn't give a saving throw, and nothing had resistance to. Evidently they're reverting to that state of affairs, so it's only reasonable that its damage should be reduced accordingly. I approve. Previously I never took magic missile in 4E. Now I can see a reason to; there are times when you really, really need to be certain of hitting the target.

That said, I can't say I approve of the method they used. One should not balance powers by relying on esoteric rules quirks like "these bonuses don't apply to powers that lack a 'd' in the damage formula." Why didn't they just remove the Int bonus instead?

 

[BobTheNob]

I think the whole debate about DPR is a big red herring. At the end of the day, MM is now a very different beast to almost all other attack powers.

Trying to compare the old with the new solely on the basis of damage output is like trying to compare a car to a motorbike and saying a motorbike is better because its faster! What about passenger capacity, all whether capability, the ability to tow. There are many factors in a deciding which is best.

To say "Its not as good because it doesnt do as much damage" (whether true or false) is just an incorrect way to assess the change. It ignores the utility auto-hit brings to the power.

To me, at the end of the day, its the preference of the user. Im not convinced MM is in any way an inferior power now, but I am convinced its different.

 

[renau1g]

I've closed the other thread, which was badly off topic. Carry on about Magic Missile here!

And those rumors that I'm changing the status of people who don't like the spell are totally overstated.

So that explains Draco's new status/picture

 

[Nifft]

+1d4 + items + feats means that the difference between that power, and... say... Ray of Frost... is that in exchange for having the slowed condition, you trade it for applying the damage directly, without any defenses contributing whatsoever.

Ray of Frost was always terrible.

And any wizard who made magic missile a go-to spell used it with the Master's Wand to get a push effect. That's only more powerful now.

There's now a build that can use a Master's Wand to deal around 1,900 hp in one round (per day).

Cheers, -- N

PS: Hexopodia is the key insight...

 

[fba827]

"official reasons" aside, I like the fact that they did update MM.
I was finding it too bland and lacking, especially when compared to stuff like Hand of Radiance (Invoker at will) that came out later.
Now, I find MM to have its own niche, so I don't completely ignore it now.