Magic Users too Tough??

[Thanee]

You think tying someone up should be a move action?

Command is simply not enough to coup de grace someone, since the target needs to be helpless. It takes one action from them and maybe a little more, because they need to stand up (when dropped prone) or come back (when fled) afterwards.

If you want to play it that way, please, go ahead, but don't complain then, that spellcasters are too tough, if you make them a lot more potent then they are meant to be.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Crow Caller]

It only takes a second or two to whack on handcuffs/mancles...

But all this is besides the point, I actually don't think MU's are to tough up to about 5th, then its down hill for the fighter and don't even get me started on EPIC SPELLS!!!

The fact is there is NOTHING a Fighter of 15th level can do that a MU can't unless he's loaded up with Magic Items, but then again if the MU loaded up with the same Magic Items then he could do it too, or in some cases the MU would use diferent Magic Items and end up with the same, or, better results!!

As stated I have played for about 10 years, and it has always been the same, only now more so, the Fighters form a human sheild whilst the MU wins the day, however now by the time you reach between 5th and 10th level (depending on specific class and situation) the MU nolonger needs the human wall.

The DMG illustrates it (literally) quite beutifully where you see "A small unit of spellcasters replace an entire company of soldiers" with 20 MU's (Say one of every Level) you have an army better than 100 Fighters (say 5 of every level) and that just isn't right.

And for those who keep saying the idea isnt to compare PC's, NEWSFLASH the NPC's use these Classes too, and look at all the Monsters with Spellcasting Abilities! These are just Tougher MU's, Can you Imagine if you had to fight a Peeved Solar? Tell what you rather been part of, A Party consisting of 2 fighters, a Theif and a Barbarian? or a Party consisting of 1 Wizard, 1 Cleric, 1 Druid, and 1 Sorceror? (Everyone is 20th Level)

Now imagine this same situation only this time the MARTIAL Characters have NO Magic Items?!?!?
and the MAGIC Characters can only have what they've made.

Once again which group would you want to be hanging with?

Cheers.

 

[Thanee]

It only takes a second or two to whack on handcuffs/mancles...

It actually takes a standard action.

As stated I have played for about 10 years, and it has always been the same, only now more so, the Fighters form a human sheild whilst the MU wins the day, however now by the time you reach between 5th and 10th level (depending on specific class and situation) the MU nolonger needs the human wall.

I don't know. That depends a lot on the DM.
Fighters can be a lot more than just human shields for the spellcasters.

We are currently playing the City of the Spider Queen, a quite combat-heavy campaign, and the fighters (actually a paladin, a fighter, and a barbarian) were or still are (not the barbarian, who died and got replaced) very effective and useful. We are now 14th~16th level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dryfus]

And for those who keep saying the idea isnt to compare PC's, NEWSFLASH the NPC's use these Classes too, and look at all the Monsters with Spellcasting Abilities! These are just Tougher MU's, Can you Imagine if you had to fight a Peeved Solar? Tell what you rather been part of, A Party consisting of 2 fighters, a Theif and a Barbarian? or a Party consisting of 1 Wizard, 1 Cleric, 1 Druid, and 1 Sorceror? (Everyone is 20th Level)

I'll be in the party with 2 fighters a thief and a Brbarian, bacause we have a MUCH better chance to actually SURVIVE to 20th level than the other party.

 

[FireLance]

It's a fact of life that some classes are more dependant on equipment than others in baseline D&D. If you wanted to, I suppose you could devise a system that allows all character classes to be roughly as effective as each other even without equipment (I believe Iron Heroes does this). However, baseline D&D tackles this issue by highlighting that characters require a certain basic amount of equipment to be on roughly equal terms. You don't have to play with these assumptions, but you should take this into account when designing challenges so that the game remains fun for all the participants.

The game also seems too magic dependent because magic is the simplest handwave for the more expensive equipment like weapons and armor with enhancement bonuses. If you don't like that idea, it is possible to work around it by creating non-magic sources of bonuses: extra levels of masterwork that grant the same level of AC, to hit, and damage bonuses as a magic shields, armor and weapons, for example, or special materials that mimic some magical properties - "asbestos-lined" armor that grants fire resistance, for example.

Mind you, all the above seems quite a lot of work for very little additional satisfaction to me. Since I can run a pretty fun game with the baseline concepts, I'd much prefer to do that. Still, YMMV.

 

[Scion]

hmm.. fighter without magical gear?

Ok then.

Human fighter
1st:
(human) Sacred Vow
(level) Vow of Poverty
(fighter bonus) combat expertise
(exalted) nymphs kiss
2nd:
(fighter bonus) improved trip
(exalted) knight of stars
3rd:
(level) Mage Slayer
4th:
(fighter) pierce magical protection
(exalted) nimbus of light
5th:
6th:
(level) blind-fight
(fighter bonus) pierce magical concealment
(exalted) gift of faith


He will use a longspear, sickle, and javalins (or a crossbow I suppose).

Pretty good saves, ability to get around a lot of magical issues, tripping people around, high touch AC if he wants it, and some decent abilities.

Of course, I think the fighter class in general is a little weak and needs a bit more in the skill section and more feats anyway. But, this guy isnt too bad really. He might even be fun to play given a proper dm.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I'll put it this way:

If you're, y'know, playing by the actual rules of the game: There's no problem.

Once you've deviated from that, well, it's your home campaign.

--fje

 

[nittanytbone]

Even in first edition a high level wizard was "more powerful" than many other characters.

The trade off to this was the fact that from levels 1-5, wizards are VERY weak. They are difficult to keep alive and viable until their later adventuring days.

In 3.5, it seems that many games start right in at 6th, 9th, or even 20th level. Obviously in such a game, the starting period of pain and struggle is skipped and wizards come in at the height of their power.

 

[Particle_Man]

Whatever happened to good old Blood, Sweat, and Tears? Man against the Elements? etc. etc. it seems they've been washed away in a tidal surge of Potions, Enhancements and Enchantments.

I strongly suggest you check out Iron Heroes, a d20 game that makes the characters tougher and magic items much more rare (and usually cursed, at that).

 

[Darklone]

Relalted topic: IIRC, commanding someone to die would cause him to act stunned... FAQ or something similar.