Major D20 Combat Change: Suggestions?

[Will]

First, have you considered E6? (short form: stop leveling at level 6, or some other level, gain extra feat every 5000 xp)
It helps avoid some of the wonkery that can annoy in mid-late levels.

Second, amusingly enough at one point I dragged out GURPS armor tables to try to adapt it to D&D. Given both are d20, a lot of the numbers are comparable, and there you go... DR by hit location, called shots, etc.

You know what I found?

With some fuzzy logic, D&D armor bonus system mapped almost precisely to 'called shot to avoid armored bits.'

In other words, D&D is actually a highly realistic abstraction of a much more complicated system.

The one edge case it doesn't handle is 'I don't care if my damage is reduced, I just want to hit the target.' You could create some sort of special 'touch attack, opponent's armor becomes DR' thing, I suppose. It also implies adamantine weapons should enable you to ignore armor, too.

Edit:
Oh and third, as for LA... I humbly suggest glancing at my YALF thread? Relatively simple way of replacing LA. (Short short form: +1 LA means you give up 8 ability score points in a point buy system, racial HD can reduce LA)

 

[LedZeppelin]

And uh, it seems you have some rather interesting misconceptions about the mechanics of GURPS, in particular combat. But hey, like I said, maybe it's just not for you. It's all good.
/tj

It's not a misconception, it really works that way. It is a flaw of the system. The defense is independent from the attack. How good you are at dodging a blow takes no consideration of what the "blow" was.

Again, the rest of the system is fine, although I don't like "roll under your own skill", the point of degree of success makes it fine. You have a 20 skill, rolled a 13, sure, you made it, but the other guy has a 24 skill rolled a 10, he beat you to it. This is Ok! You are better at something than someone else, you have a higher chance of beating him. Specially with a 3d6 system, that, with the ball curve it provides, over 67% of the rolls will come out 8-13.

But in combat, it's just... God!! the Avatar of Zeus has just struck me with his "Greatest Magical Sword in the Heavens"!!!! I am dead!!......... No, just roll under you 18 dodge skill and you avoided it.... I dodged the Avatar of Zeus just like I would a sligshot from a street kid?????... Yes....

 

[Celebrim]

It's not a misconception, it really works that way. It is a flaw of the system.

And one that has been addressed by advanced combat rules practically since GURPS's conception. You can always Feint. 'Only the Best Shall Win' has been in GURP Compendium 2/GURPS Martial Art for like 20 years now. It's now a core mechanic in GURPS 4e under the new name 'Deceptive Attack'.

Besides, the core mechanic works the you describe deliberately, so that fights between two masters will last for a long time. Afterall, a perfectly aimed attack is a perfectly aimed attack no matter who threw it, and in practice straight up 'Degree of Success' in combat creates at least as much problems as it solves - it's clear you never tried it or you wouldn't be so cocksure.

However, there are plenty of optional rules scattered around in different world books if high defense scores are common in your game or if the things being simulated depart from the assumed 'normal combat' in some significant way. There are optional rules that handle dodging the stomp of Godzilla, for example, if the attacker is much much bigger than you, and so forth. So that problem with dodging the Dragon with the 30' wide claw? GURPS has it covered if you want to go into that detail. D&D doesn't even try.

The great thing about GURPs is once you are really familiar with it you can see just how influential it is on just about every other game system. Whenever another game system tries to be realistic (3e D&D's size modifiers, M&M's rule for evading massive attacks), GURPS got there first.

The problem becomes as you start trying to nit pick the GURPS rules in various corner cases and you start digging up the truly vast complicated rules for handling all the corner cases the seemingly simple game mechanic gets very unsimple in a hurry. It however is amazingly realistic in ways that D&D doesn't even begin to approach. Pulling out all the stops at the highest level of realism, GURPS can handle a combat between say a wasp, a house cat, a human, and an elephant far more gracefully and realistically that D&D would ever attempt to. Unfortunately, the math in GURPS all too often begins to resemble an actual simulation and requires a computer to handle.

 

[LedZeppelin]

And one that has been addressed by advanced combat rules practically since GURPS's conception. You can always Feint. 'Only the Best Shall Win' has been in GURP Compendium 2/GURPS Martial Art for like 20 years now. It's now a core mechanic in GURPS 4e under the new name 'Deceptive Attack'.

I've heard about this Deceptive Attack, it works fine for "humanoids" fight.. but you're saying the Charging Rhinocerous would have to faint his charge? What about the dragon?

There are optional rules that handle dodging the stomp of Godzilla, for example, if the attacker is much much bigger than you, and so forth. So that problem with dodging the Dragon with the 30' wide claw? GURPS has it covered if you want to go into that detail. D&D doesn't even try.

Sorry, now it's even worse. You need an optional rule to diffrentiate a Godzilla stomp from an axe swing? A 30' wide claw from a sword thrust??? The very basics should cover it!! D&D doesn't need to address it differently, the Dragon has a +50 attack bonus... he's gonna hit you... unless you are Steven Seagal or someone else with a 70 AC.


Now, I'm experimenting with something completely new, a little odd at first, but looking promising. Using Storyteller system. I'm just beginning with this, but the "conversion" is looking very very nice. The new World of Darkness (WoD) book is a generic system, you can easily create a medieval character. Get some Vampire Discplines, Werewolves... (at the first 1 or 2 "dots" only though) and you've got many special abilites. Tune down the Mage a little, and it's quite a Wizard.
Any thoughts on this? Has anyone ever tried?

 

[Celebrim]

I've heard about this Deceptive Attack, it works fine for "humanoids" fight.. but you're saying the Charging Rhinocerous would have to faint his charge? What about the dragon?

Personally, I would have named it something like 'fast attack' or something just to avoid this sort of thing, but yes, that's what I'm saying. If Charging Rhinocerous wants to run down Nimble Ned, then the Rhino is going to have to do some fancy footwork. Likewise, the Dragon, if he wants to

Sorry, now it's even worse.

See, here's the problem. You don't know what realism is. Having a whole complex set of rules might be 'worse', but abstracting it into a single non-situational attack against a static defence isn't more realistic however quicker and easier it may be in play.

You need an optional rule to diffrentiate a Godzilla stomp from an axe swing? A 30' wide claw from a sword thrust??? The very basics should cover it!!

Except that they don't. This is not a basic situation. GURPS has a 'Grand Unified Theory of Hitting Stuff' that factors in the size of the target with the cross-sectional area of the weapon in a realistic way. GURPS separates the concept of defense into its constituient parts - your ability to move out of the way, block, or parry, vs. the armors ability to cause blows to glance off of you, vs. the armors ability to absorb damage. Each of these numbers has a purpose. Your shield might be a great means of protecting yourself from a sword slash. It doesn't do anything to protect you from being stomped on by Godzilla.

By comparison, D&D's combat system crawls in a hole and hides when it has to model a farmer fighting a house cat, much less anything complex.

To look at this realistically, you start plugging in the all the factors:

1) Where does Godzilla's foot go? In D&D, Godzilla might miss you with his foot, but realistically, doesn't that just mean that he stomped the 30x30' square to your left (or right, or whatever)? Why did your friend standing next to you, Fragile Fred, escape the stomping?
2) It's a 30' wide foot for crying out loud. Even if he doesn't get you dead center of the foot, he's still likely to hit you. Why then does he have a -8 to hit due to size? Shouldn't he realistically, in this case at least, have a bonus to hit you due to his size in the same way that its easier for you to swat a fly with a flyswatter than a vorpal sword?
2) Ok, so you are in the line of Godzilla's stomp: does your shield even count as protection? Does your armor provide any defence at all?
3) Suppose you try to dodge Godzilla's stomp? Where do you end up? You can't just stand there, you are about to get stomped.

D&D doesn't address any of this. In D&D, Godzilla's stomp is fully abstract. If it misses you, it doesn't land anywhere. There is no realism involved or attempted. D&D doesn't attempt to model, 'Godzilla's foot really exists'. And even if it hits you, if you are high enough level, some abstract thing happens that keeps you from being realisticly squished flat the way that the 1st level dude with the same Con does get squished. D&D's combat system falls apart when a guy takes his helmet off. It can't deal with realism at all. Now, I've said before that I learned from GURPS that there is more to a good game than realism, but are you seriously going to stand here and argue that D&D in any incarnation is more realistic than GURPS???

 

[LedZeppelin]

This is nice, I'm learning more of Gurps from you than reading the Core Book!

Well... I was going to say this in my previous post, really. The Godzilla Stomp would be considered an "area attack", in that you'd roll you Reflex. Completely addressing all the matters. Your shield and armor can't protect you, all you can do is dive for cover/run out of the way. So, how would Nimble Ned work this situation, he is quick and nimble (duh..), he was running out of the way when Lil' Zilla started raising his leg, he dived out of the Stomp, though barely and maybe a little bruised and heavy breathing now (reflex for half). Conan couldn't make it though, took it all from the massive 10d20 damage... he's still alive? Well... the ground wasn't leveled (cheap, yes...), he was quick enough to get into the lower part (yes, cheap). But he is hurt pretty bad, very bad.. but again, it's Conan, he's not your common army swordsman, but a champion of battle who has fought Dragons and Liches. The common man would get smashed no doubt, as would anyone. The only ones who could come out of this was Nimble Ned (in D&D he struggled a lot thgouh, in Gurps he just stepped out of the way with his Jedi speed 40' step) and Conan, anyone else would've been smashed to death... but with Gurps basic rules anyone with a 14 (FOURTEEN!!!) dodge could easily have made it 90% sure!! (little over 90% chance of rolling 14 or less).
YES, there is the bigger-than-you rule, but it's not a core base rule, gotta go into expert mode for it... D&D covers it pretty well with the basic core.


What about that WoD conversion? I'm getting interested into the system.

Oh yes..... armor in Gurps soaks damage... this is nice, bigger metal plate reduces lots of damage.. very very good, i like that... oh, fire does damage.. hmm... metal breastplate protects against fire!! Get a 6" thick steel full plate and dive in a volcano!!!
Just mocking now, if I'm not mistaken they addressed this kind of thing in 4th... 3rd still had it though...

 

[Hawken]

I'm not really getting how your proposed changes are improving the game.

Piecemeal armor? So what? Just let the players describe their armor how they see fit. Light armor, basically gives you +2 AC, Medium gives +5AC, and Heavy gives +8AC. Of course there are differences, but those numbers are what it boils down to.

If your player wants piecemeal armor, just ask if he wants heavy, medium or light. If he wants a higher max dex on his medium piecemeal armor but doesn't want to get mithril, then give him a higher max dex but maybe increase his armor check penalty or his arcane spell failure.

You don't really need a new set of rules just for this. Just play around with the numbers a bit and call the armor whatever you want to call it.

I'm not really sure about the rest of it. It seems like, for some reason, you're trying to intentionally complicate the game or just add a bunch of unnecessary bookkeeping for either DM or player or both.

 

[Sylrae]

@Hawken:

1. Piecemeal Armor Rules: I suppose your Idea of "Make up some armor and say what it's specifically designed to do and I'll create a set of armor rules for it" would work too. The Number of Armor Types would build up pretty fast though.

Personally I was thinking it might be cool if I could give out individual armor items instead of full suits of armor. You find a steel helmet. Yes you can wear that with your studded leather vest, and with your darkwood shoulderpads.

Not so much that I want to 'unnecessarily complicate the game', it's more that there are a number of things I'm not so fond of in D&D, which I think are done better in World of Darkness, in particular (oWoD or nWoD) but the World of Darkness system doesn't do a good job handling a fantasy setting. Particularly for fantasy style magic, different races, or races of differing power levels.

2. Armor as DR: Armor is for reducing the injuries you take if you get hit. I could see deflecting attacks using your weapons, or a shield, but not as much with armor.

3. Static, CON Based Hit Points: Being hit is always described as being hit. However, Hit points supposedly also represent your skill at getting out of the way, and only a small fraction of your hit points are necessarily for the damage you take. It can be ignored, and in my current games I have been handwaving it away as always, but it still drives me crazy. In WoD you get Hit Points based on your character's toughness, and a flat amount by race (in WoD it's 5 for most creatures, it goes up if youre really big).

4. Damage output adjusted to match the new, not-rapidly increasing hit points: If you have less hit points, damage should be adjusted down. I'm not going for "Everything Kills You", I'm going for Toughness != Dodging Ability.

5. Class Defense Bonuses: As characters gain levels, they become more adept at not getting hit. AC will be DB (Defensive Bonus) as it's now related to deflecting attacks, and getting out of the way, and does not represent damage absorbing blows anymore.

6. Arcane Spell Failure Change: ASF as a flat % is just a weird mechanic that doesn't match the mechanics for the rest of the game, even though it's not that complicated. It doesnt cover weird situations that well either, such as casting underwater, with one hand, etc.

7. These feats are just things I saw as default combat mechanics that anyone should be able to do. Like Grapple.
Power Attack: Sacrificing DB for Better chance to hit.
Combat Expertise: Sacrificing Chance to Hit for Better DB.
Acrobatic Charge: Use skills to get around obstacles while charging.

8. I use fractional BAB, and a different system for Saves that gives similar values without goof ups with multiclassing.

9. Trailblazer spellcasting progressions will work do what I need them to, with one issue that I want to talk to him about that gives multiclass casters too big of a spell list to choose from.

10. LA as levels: I've described this elsewhere on these forums. It works pretty well from playtests, though you can't just grab a creature from the MM and go. It takes pre-game Prep work for monsters.

11. Altered Counterspelling: I want counterspelling to be a more commonly tried maneuver which is more doable. The spellcasting will be along the lines of what I discussed here.

 

[Hawken]

Well, make up your armor and then put it into one of the three categories--Light, Medium or Heavy. And just tweak the numbers. If your going to increase AC bonus, increase ACP or reduce Max Dex, or both and don't forget to mess with ASF too if the armor is going to be clunky.

Individual armor items are too much to keep track of, plus you're digging yourself a deep hole when it comes to getting those individual pieces enchanted. How screwed are you when your breastplate is ghost touch, but nothing else is? And just how resistant are you to critical hits when your bracers have Heavy Fortification but nothing else does? You may be immune to getting your arms chopped off, but how does that protect the rest of you?

If you want to get into helmets, make different helmets have have them provide varying degrees of protection against critical hits. If a critical threat is rolled maybe one type of helm gives a +2 AC bonus on the confirming roll only, while another gives +4 or +7. And these could be treated as magic item slots also. Do you take the Goggles of Minute Seeing, or stick with the helmet for better protection?

I get the armor as DR and I use it in my games frequently. I usually give DR 1/- for light armor, 2 for Medium and 4 for Heavy. And it would stack with things like Adamantite and other untyped DR.

You can still use hit points and also use wound points too. Hit points can remain the same and wound points would be analogous to a character's negative hit point score. This way you don't have to mess up your game recalculating damage for EVERYTHING. This way you still get the skill at avoiding injury and a critical hit would still be dangerous (you could have, say, one multiple of the critical damage apply to your wound points; otherwise wound points don't get touched until someone runs out of hit points).

If you do class defense, you need to mitigate it somehow with armor, unless the rate you gain these bonuses is pathetically slow, but then no one would care about them.

ASF: Change it to a Concentration check whenever someone casts in armor. Maybe DC 18 for Light, 23 for medium and 28 for heavy, +1 per level of the spell. Maybe allow the bonus from Combat Casting to apply to these checks, or not. And since those checks will soon be easy, make a stipulation that casting in armor changes the casting time from a standard action to a full round action. If someone wants to do it, they can, but there will be a price to pay.

Those feats, yeah, anyone should be able to do them, but someone taking the feat should get a better bonus. Say for Power Attack, maybe trade on a 2 for 1 ratio; 2 pts of attack gets you 1 extra pt of damage, and maybe 3:2 for two handed weapons. And if you get the actual feat, the exchange is 1:1 normally, or 2:1 for two handed weapons.

Have a feat that trades BAB for damage, one that trades BAB for AC, one that trades damage for BAB and maybe even one that allows an extra attack but at a -5 to damage AND BAB--trading precision and power for speed.

 

[the Jester]

Dude, isn't 3e combat slow enough already?