Major Problems For 3rd Edition
- Thread starter EverDarkness
- Start date
Cedric
First Post
I think 3E problems are largely a matter of perspective. I very much liked the original 1st edition power balance. At high levels, Mages are GOD!...etc.
3e altered that a good deal and in doing so, have created a really good game, that I find myself having to work at to enjoy sometimes.
I don't consider myself to be a stick in the mud traditionalist, and I do like both running and playing 3rd edition...but many aspects of the game do grate on my nerves.
In addition to the balance of power shifting, I think they have gone too far to make many of the rules "black and white". Like playing monsters as PC's.
I prefer that many of those aspects of the game be left up to the GM. Now yes, it's true, as GM those are still left up to me, and I say no. But now I have to contend with disappointed players because I am not allowing them to do something that is clearly in the rules.
I also limit prestige classes to one 10 level class and one 5 level class per character...period. And almost all PrC's in my world will have an associated society and many roleplaying obstacles to membership.
Not deterring obstacles, just challenges the player must address to be allowed into the organization. ie, meet people, impress them, offer some service to them, pay your dues, earn your way, follow the rules and guidelines, help out when called upon.
So in summary...
Changes the original D&D balance of power too drastically.
Offers too many choices to the players as part of the main ruleset, giving the illusion that these choices are allowed in all games.
Cedric -
p.s. This was just my opinion...btw
3e altered that a good deal and in doing so, have created a really good game, that I find myself having to work at to enjoy sometimes.
I don't consider myself to be a stick in the mud traditionalist, and I do like both running and playing 3rd edition...but many aspects of the game do grate on my nerves.
In addition to the balance of power shifting, I think they have gone too far to make many of the rules "black and white". Like playing monsters as PC's.
I prefer that many of those aspects of the game be left up to the GM. Now yes, it's true, as GM those are still left up to me, and I say no. But now I have to contend with disappointed players because I am not allowing them to do something that is clearly in the rules.
I also limit prestige classes to one 10 level class and one 5 level class per character...period. And almost all PrC's in my world will have an associated society and many roleplaying obstacles to membership.
Not deterring obstacles, just challenges the player must address to be allowed into the organization. ie, meet people, impress them, offer some service to them, pay your dues, earn your way, follow the rules and guidelines, help out when called upon.
So in summary...
Changes the original D&D balance of power too drastically.
Offers too many choices to the players as part of the main ruleset, giving the illusion that these choices are allowed in all games.
Cedric -
p.s. This was just my opinion...btw
Ranger REG
Explorer
Yeah, they kept some of the "sacred cows" for familiarity's sake. You don't want to sell a D&D product that is now totally unfamiliar. Kinda like selling Krispy Kreme donuts in Burger King.Wormwood said:
I hope that with 3.5e, they will let go some of the "sacred cows" but still feel D&D.
But since the original poster ask for problems, mine would be underpowered and there for underused specialist wizards. Personally, they shoud remove the "opposition school of magic" rule.
A'koss
Explorer
This is exactly it.
If they had changed it wholesale they ran the risk of offending their entire market. Just like Windows, progression in small steps allows them to keep their existing market while providing them with the opportunity to come out with a New and Improved! brand every few years...
So if 3e is Win 95, I guess we'll have to wait for 5e before we something in the way of a stable game!
Hmm, interesting idea. Have you codified this in any way? Something along these lines might be the silver bullet for skills I've been looking for.
My personal gripe with 3rd ed. basically boils down to game balance going astray at high levels. And the imbalances that work against the game at <20 levels is only compounded upon in epic levels...
Cheers,
A'koss!
hammymchamham
First Post
the major problem with 3rd edition is I don't get to play enough
Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
Because the system tells you you can do certain things, everyone assumes that you must. If you deviate from the system, your workload becomes a lot bigger. This is because in 2e etc you had no Cr's, no wealth by level etc Printed in a book foor everyone to read: If you wanted to run the game in a certain style, it was easier to get away with it.
Now, I f I want to run a game in a certain way, I have to make less houserules than I did in 2e, but they will change the system dramatically.
It is like having a Jaguar E type or a brand new mercedes. one you can easily learn to fix yourself, the other has so many high end electronics you need a degree to do it, and everyone will say that you shouldn't tamper with those anyway (and they are possibly right). Of course 2e wasn't a Jaguar E type but a VW beetle... but the comparison holds
So all in all: 3e is very customisable for the players, but for Dms it is a nightmare.
Rav
Now, I f I want to run a game in a certain way, I have to make less houserules than I did in 2e, but they will change the system dramatically.
It is like having a Jaguar E type or a brand new mercedes. one you can easily learn to fix yourself, the other has so many high end electronics you need a degree to do it, and everyone will say that you shouldn't tamper with those anyway (and they are possibly right). Of course 2e wasn't a Jaguar E type but a VW beetle... but the comparison holds
So all in all: 3e is very customisable for the players, but for Dms it is a nightmare.
Rav
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
"Broken"
by Sagiro
A tour of the Rulebooks for your 3rd Edition
Reveals a hard truth of the human condition
You give all us nerds a nice ENBoard stage
And we'll find something BROKEN on every dang page!
Broke classes, broke magic, broke weapons, broke rules,
These rules were released by a conflux of fools!
Whoever said "Sure, this is balanced enough."
Had never seen Munchkins out strutting their stuff.
You're looking for trouble? Try telekinesis!
It doesn't sound bad but consider this thesis:
I haul up a cart that is loaded with arrows,
The next thing you know they're all flying like sparrows!
I've unleashed a hailstorm of miniature missiles
They'll stick you like barbs and they'll prick you like thistles
Each one does a measly d4 points of pain
But a barrel of broadheads will blast out your brain!
And what about haste? It's obscenely absurd.
It's better than eyebite or unholy word.
It doubles the output of spells for the caster,
Creating a cackling spell-casting master!
And if haste is broken, then harm is destroyed,
A divine caster's H-Bomb divinely deployed.
A touch attack takes down a Tarrasque to two!
A quickened inflict and your troubles are through.
Now polymorph other just asks for abuse
Change your friends! Change your foes! It's got use upon use!
Just turn all your fighters to Giants and Trolls,
While your enemies get to be goldfish and voles.
And if you have doubts about polymorph other,
Just check out shape change, its 9th level big brother.
Your poor Dungeon Master will pull out her hair
When you pluck this sick stratagem out of thin air:
First fly overhead while your foe wonders why,
Then change to an adamant cube in the sky!
A block that is hundreds of feet in dimension
Is sure to draw lots of astonished attention.
The players you play with will shout out with joy
While your DM will look a bit shocked at the ploy
But the best part is grabbing that handful of dice
and rolling those four thousand D-sixes -- twice!
It may take you hours to count all those pips
while the DM looks on with a-quivering lips
But wait 'til you see the sad look in her eye
When you ask "I do twelve thousand points... did it die?"
But enough about shape change -- let's talk about chains.
The spike-adorned chain is a game-master's bane.
This rockin' reach weapon, expertly employed
Can render your NPC warrantees Void.
And what of that greatsword with liquid inside?
It does extra damage without a downside!
Its physics are faulty, there's no doubt about it,
but smack-downish Munchkins won't leave home without it.
Without silly swords or a chain rife with spikes,
A fine Bladed Gauntlet will bolster your strikes
And if that still fails to fulfill your demands,
Try Crossbows (repeating) equipped in both hands!
Are any feats broken? Here for your submission
Are Prodigy, Manyshot, Expert Tactician.
But Great Cleave and Whirlwind make other Feats pale:
Just watch what I do with this bucket of snails!
Absurd magic items? There’s plenty to spare,
And that’s just the ones you find under “footwear.”
There’s Striding and Springing and Speed a la Boots
That take none of the labor but give all the fruits!
A quite broken class that rains death from above
is the Order of Bow, the Initiate of.
With its Archery Zen and its Sneak Attacks ranged
And its opportunistic attacks fast exchanged
The Crescent Moon Ninja’s another example
Of prestige class madness. Just look at its sample
Of special class powers; they must have been high!
This Ninja’s a thing for which Munchkins would die!
And what of the Archmage? The guy is a terror!
The Duelist’s a standard smack-down standard-bearer.
The Hospitaler has a whack BAB,
The Shifter can shift all she wants… and it’s free!
There’s nothing that’s fair and there’s nothing that’s just
It fills a fair-minded DM with disgust!
Persistent Spell, forcecage, miasma and shield –
Is there anything here that should not be repealed?
Forget it! I’m giving this game up for good.
I should…
And I would…
And I certainly could…
…oh, but maybe I just have an unfair impression.
Fine.
Pass the d20.
I’ll play one more session.
the end
by Sagiro
A tour of the Rulebooks for your 3rd Edition
Reveals a hard truth of the human condition
You give all us nerds a nice ENBoard stage
And we'll find something BROKEN on every dang page!
Broke classes, broke magic, broke weapons, broke rules,
These rules were released by a conflux of fools!
Whoever said "Sure, this is balanced enough."
Had never seen Munchkins out strutting their stuff.
You're looking for trouble? Try telekinesis!
It doesn't sound bad but consider this thesis:
I haul up a cart that is loaded with arrows,
The next thing you know they're all flying like sparrows!
I've unleashed a hailstorm of miniature missiles
They'll stick you like barbs and they'll prick you like thistles
Each one does a measly d4 points of pain
But a barrel of broadheads will blast out your brain!
And what about haste? It's obscenely absurd.
It's better than eyebite or unholy word.
It doubles the output of spells for the caster,
Creating a cackling spell-casting master!
And if haste is broken, then harm is destroyed,
A divine caster's H-Bomb divinely deployed.
A touch attack takes down a Tarrasque to two!
A quickened inflict and your troubles are through.
Now polymorph other just asks for abuse
Change your friends! Change your foes! It's got use upon use!
Just turn all your fighters to Giants and Trolls,
While your enemies get to be goldfish and voles.
And if you have doubts about polymorph other,
Just check out shape change, its 9th level big brother.
Your poor Dungeon Master will pull out her hair
When you pluck this sick stratagem out of thin air:
First fly overhead while your foe wonders why,
Then change to an adamant cube in the sky!
A block that is hundreds of feet in dimension
Is sure to draw lots of astonished attention.
The players you play with will shout out with joy
While your DM will look a bit shocked at the ploy
But the best part is grabbing that handful of dice
and rolling those four thousand D-sixes -- twice!
It may take you hours to count all those pips
while the DM looks on with a-quivering lips
But wait 'til you see the sad look in her eye
When you ask "I do twelve thousand points... did it die?"
But enough about shape change -- let's talk about chains.
The spike-adorned chain is a game-master's bane.
This rockin' reach weapon, expertly employed
Can render your NPC warrantees Void.
And what of that greatsword with liquid inside?
It does extra damage without a downside!
Its physics are faulty, there's no doubt about it,
but smack-downish Munchkins won't leave home without it.
Without silly swords or a chain rife with spikes,
A fine Bladed Gauntlet will bolster your strikes
And if that still fails to fulfill your demands,
Try Crossbows (repeating) equipped in both hands!
Are any feats broken? Here for your submission
Are Prodigy, Manyshot, Expert Tactician.
But Great Cleave and Whirlwind make other Feats pale:
Just watch what I do with this bucket of snails!
Absurd magic items? There’s plenty to spare,
And that’s just the ones you find under “footwear.”
There’s Striding and Springing and Speed a la Boots
That take none of the labor but give all the fruits!
A quite broken class that rains death from above
is the Order of Bow, the Initiate of.
With its Archery Zen and its Sneak Attacks ranged
And its opportunistic attacks fast exchanged
The Crescent Moon Ninja’s another example
Of prestige class madness. Just look at its sample
Of special class powers; they must have been high!
This Ninja’s a thing for which Munchkins would die!
And what of the Archmage? The guy is a terror!
The Duelist’s a standard smack-down standard-bearer.
The Hospitaler has a whack BAB,
The Shifter can shift all she wants… and it’s free!
There’s nothing that’s fair and there’s nothing that’s just
It fills a fair-minded DM with disgust!
Persistent Spell, forcecage, miasma and shield –
Is there anything here that should not be repealed?
Forget it! I’m giving this game up for good.
I should…
And I would…
And I certainly could…
…oh, but maybe I just have an unfair impression.
Fine.
Pass the d20.
I’ll play one more session.
the end
For me, many of the problems revolve around overly complex rules, silly rules, and stereotypes enforced by the rules.
Attacks of Opportunity is a good example of the former. Everyone I know has had questions about this. You have a whole slew of rules, which actions do or don't cause them, but it isn't something that can be distilled down into a general rule.
Limitations on who gets Diplomacy or Swim as a class skill is an example of the stereotypes. Why should it be harder for a wizard or cleric to learn to swim than a rogue? I would have put skills like Climb, Swim, Diplomacy and maybe Ride on everyone's skill list. For me, the whole cross-class vs. class skill is a little silly. The cross-class skills rule is the one that usually most interferes with me creating the type of character I want.
Attacks of Opportunity is a good example of the former. Everyone I know has had questions about this. You have a whole slew of rules, which actions do or don't cause them, but it isn't something that can be distilled down into a general rule.
Limitations on who gets Diplomacy or Swim as a class skill is an example of the stereotypes. Why should it be harder for a wizard or cleric to learn to swim than a rogue? I would have put skills like Climb, Swim, Diplomacy and maybe Ride on everyone's skill list. For me, the whole cross-class vs. class skill is a little silly. The cross-class skills rule is the one that usually most interferes with me creating the type of character I want.
megamania
Hero
the return of Dr. Suess........
Broken....the individual's perspective of the game and how it should be played. (was broken in 1e and 2e also)
The game mechanics are fine. If there is something you don't like- ignore it or change it. So long as everyone in your group agrees then go for it.
Broken....the individual's perspective of the game and how it should be played. (was broken in 1e and 2e also)
The game mechanics are fine. If there is something you don't like- ignore it or change it. So long as everyone in your group agrees then go for it.
