Making 2 weapon fighting not suck-o-rama

[Storyteller01]

HAs anyone tried creating a feat that allows you to apply your dex bonus to a weapon you have weapon finesse with (I'm thinking 3.0 here. A dagger is not a rapier, after all... ).

I was thinking that the feat allowed full dex bonus damage to a weapon you have taken W. Fin for. It would also allow you to gain the bonus in full for both your primary and off-hand weapon. Of course , said damage wouldn't stack power attack or similar abilities (or aiming for accuracy; power attack just hits REALLY hard...).

 

[cmanos]

as someone who has used two-handed weapons and two one-handed weapons in real life, I can tell you from experience, wielding a two-handed weapon is not that much different than wielding a one handed weapon. The only differenc eis the weapon is heavyer, requiring 2 hands to use properly.

Utilizing two one handed weapons takes a lot of skill and dexterity. Your off hand will always suck more than your main hand. Only through lots and lots of training can you begin to overcome this penalty. Heck, even punching with your off hand isn't as effective unless you train a lot.

But this is a fantasy game with no basis in reailty, so do whatever you like.

 

[BalazarIago]

Another way to improve TWF would be to introduce a Feat that allows to attack once with each weapon as a standard action.

I don't think this should require a feat. A creature with a weapon and a natural attack, may do a normal attack with the weapon and a normal attack with the Natural Weapon (At -5). I see no reason why someone with two weapons could not use both weapons on a standard attack.

 

[TheEvil]

I don't think this should require a feat. A creature with a weapon and a natural attack, may do a normal attack with the weapon and a normal attack with the Natural Weapon (At -5). I see no reason why someone with two weapons could not use both weapons on a standard attack.

Um, that is only on a FULL attack. Even a dire octipus only gets one attack with a standard action.

 

[Storyteller01]

I don't think this should require a feat. A creature with a weapon and a natural attack, may do a normal attack with the weapon and a normal attack with the Natural Weapon (At -5). I see no reason why someone with two weapons could not use both weapons on a standard attack.

They are!
it's being used in defense (parrying and all that). Making a second attack still requires a greater commitment on the part of the attacker (hence the full round action) .

 

[The Souljourner]

Two weapon vs. two handed is an interesting comparison. WoTC went to a lot of trouble to make sure they do similar damage, and each have their own benefits and restrictions. Two handed is great against damage reduction you can't bypass. Two weapon is great at not wasting damage on foes who are almost dead. Two handed is great when you only get one attack. I think in general, two handed has a lot more inherent benefits than two weapon... but there are enough ways to trick out your two weapon guy that you can make up for it.

The kick in the nuts is the feats required for two weapon fighting. Two handed guys need NONE. Two weapon guys need four. That's insane. Four feats in the same chain should get you some awesome ability... instead of "not quite keeping up with the greatsword guy".

Remove the feats from two weapon fighting entirely. No feats, works same as if you had the feats. Now anyone can pick up a greatsword and do 2d6 + Str*1.5 or two shortswords for the same damage (albeit at a -2 to hit on all attacks). The -2 is still kinda sucky, but now that we've done away with the base feats, you can add some back in, like a feat that reduces the penalties by 2.

I don't care about how hard it is in real life, I care about how balanced it is in D&D, and how much I want to give alternatives to players so they don't all gravitate towards greatswords.

Plus, I've played a two weapon wielding guy who is doing his level best to tweak the numbers, and I'm still way behind what I could be doing with a simple greatsword and the feats I would have to spare.

-The Souljourner

 

[ZuulMoG]

Uh, TWF is much weaker. Compare a longsword and shortsword vs. a greatsword or Sword & Board on a 3rd level human fighter with 18 Str. The two swords guy has TWF, Power Attack, and Cleave. The greatsword/sword&board guys have Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave. Assuming targets with AC16 and 2HD...

2WF: Longsword +5 (d8+4), Shortsword +5 (d6+2) Avg damage = 7.4375
2HF: Greatsword +7 (2d6+6) Avg damage = 17.991168
S&B: Longsword +7 (d8+4) (AC+2) Avg damage = 5.170176
(Avg damage assumes average die rolls (rounded up), accounts for hit probability, critical probability, and probability of killing target and getting a Cleave or Great Cleave facing four targets. For Sword & Board, it also factors in survivability due to added AC.)

Clearly, at 3rd level, 2HF is far superior to S&B, and blows 2WF away too. 2WF is marginally better than S&B, and the increased survivability of S&B probably balances nicely. 2HF, especially with a greatsword, is massively unbalanced.

Damn, I gotta quit taking 2WF at low levels...here I thought it was kickin', turns out it's chicken.

Hmm, what about at higher levels (11+)? Increased hit probability and number of attacks is going to tip the scales in favor of 2WF, but will it be enough with the 2HF & the S&B getting 2 more feats to devote to improving other areas? I think it will. I can't think of a feat selection that will offset the benefit of three extra attacks for the 2WF that either an S&B or a 2HF can pick. Shield bashing feats will bring the S&B up past with the 2HF, but the 2WF is sitting in the fabled catbird seat after 10th level. By this time, the poor 2HF had best start looking for a board, or another weapon... YMMV

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Pros of TWF

Vs 2H
* less damage wasted on overkill
* weapons are able to be used with finesse
Vs S&B
* greater base damage output
* no shield ACP
* no cost for enhancing magic shield
Vs both 2H & S&B
* multiple weapons for greater DR overcoming ability
* greater value gained from bonus damage dice or flat bonuses
* greater ability to control the application of damage upon multiple enemies
* finessed fighting can also mean a good dex bonus for AC & viability of light armour (& thus better skill bonuses because of armour)

****

Cons of TWF

Vs 2H
* less overall damage output
* lacks the single massive hit to overcome DR
Vs S&B
* less AC
Vs both 2H & S&B
* requires full attack option
* feat intensive
* effective double cost for enhancing magic weapons
* AoO are at the TWF penalty
* easier to be sundered or disarmed due to TWF penalty & light weapons
* more movement actions are required to draw a weapon

****

I think TWF is a viable choice of fighting style that fills a niche, but I would urge any of my players to look at their character's (desired & actual) class, stats, feats, skills & equipment before making a decision. Role playing desire is of course essential but I don't like seeing characters that can't do their tricks well to back up the concept with hard mechanics.

 

[The Souljourner]

Pros of TWF

Vs 2H
* weapons are able to be used with finesse

That just means you need decent Dex *and* strength. Hardly a benefit. And if you don't have decent strength, you're already far behind in the game.

Vs S&B
* no cost for enhancing magic shield

Uhh... you still have to enhance your second weapon, and that is, by definition, twice as expensive as enhancing a shield.

Vs both 2H & S&B
* finessed fighting can also mean a good dex bonus for AC & viability of light armour (& thus better skill bonuses because of armour)

Bah, if you have better dex, you have better dex. Nothing says a two handed fighter can't have just as good dex. And if you're trading strength for dex, you're crippling your fighter. Strength = damage.

Cons of TWF

Vs 2H
* less overall damage output
* lacks the single massive hit to overcome DR

* Also lacks massive single hit when you can't make a full attack - such as attacks of opportunity, charging, move and attack, spring attack, surprise rounds, etc.

I think TWF is a viable choice of fighting style that fills a niche

It's viable. Barely. And you really need to understand that you're gimping yourself horribly for something that is really just a matter of style. You can make up for it somewhat by cheesing out every last bit of bonus damage you can find... but what you're basically doing is working your ass off to keep up with two hander who gets all this crap for free.

-The Souljourner

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd like to point out that people keep saying that TWF has an advantage in situations where your opponent is almost dead, you do not waste as much damage.

This is an extremely minor advantage, practically not worth mentioning.

While it is true that if an opponent has 3 hit points left, a single attack from the TW fighter will kill him just as easily as a single attack from the THW fighter. But, you have to look at getting the opponent down to those 3 hit points in the first place.

Let's take a 50% chance to hit, full round attacks, low level. Fighters have 16 Str (we'll ignore criticals since they have the same chance to have those in both cases):

2D6 + 1.5 Str = 11 points of damage per successful hit * 50% chance to hit = 5.5 points of damage per full round attack

D8 + Str + D6 + 0.5 Str = 7.5 + 4.5 = 12 points of damage per two successful hits * 40% chance to hit = 4.8 points of damage per full round attack

If an opponent has 20 hit points, it will take the THW fighter on average two successful hits to take him out. It will take 4 rounds on average for this to occur.

It will take the TW fighter 3 to 4 successful hits and 4+ rounds to do this because he is averaging less damage per full round attack (due to the -2 to hit).

So the fact that on round 5, the TW fighter might kill his opponent who has 1 or 2 hit points left with his first swing and still have a second swing to attack someone else is totally irrelevant.

The THW fighter finished his opponent off in round 4 and is not still fighting him in round 5.


The ability to swing twice is way outshadowed by the ability to do a lot more damage per swing. A lot of damage does sometimes get wasted by the THW fighters, but the fact that they take out opponents faster makes this somewhat of a moot point.

Using the same example above with an opponent of 23 hits, the THW fighter wastes a lot of damage on his third successful hit if he does 22 points of damage on the first two hits and the opponent has 1 hit point left. And it takes him 5 rounds on average to take out the opponent in this case.

The TW fighter also takes out this 23 hit point opponent in an average of 5 rounds. He has no advantage here because he always averages less damage per full round attack. He also averages a LOT less damage per single attack (e.g. a standard action attack, an Attack of Opportunity, etc.).