Making guns lethal.

[ValhallaGH]

I would like to engender a certain playstyle in regards to firearms -- not necessarily "realistic", but "smart" and "scary". I want people to think twice about leaping into a gun battle. I want them to take cover. I want them to covet their bullets and only shoot when it is absolutely necessary or worth the cost.

Then you have to decide if you want guns to be death sticks ("Oh noes! He pointed a gun at me, I must be dead."), which means they will be used pretty constantly as they are better than everything else, or if you want them to be effective weapons with very limited resources.

I get the feeling that you want them to be effective weapons with very limited resources. If that's the case then up their damage by one die. PPKs now do 3d4, 1911s now do 3d6, M16s now do 3d8 and Light 50s do 3d12 base; double damage on a crit.

This would make them very effective and dangerous (even with the normal MDT rules), so that players are scared of them, without making them so good that the players feel they need to use them for every fight. They'll be willing to use their swords, knives and boards with nails when facing opponents they could melee to death and they will save their bullets for things that require that extra touch of power (rad monsters, snipers, scary cyber-mutant-alien freaks, etc.).

If you want them to be even worse then change their damage dice to d4+(X-4) where X is the old damage die. So PPKs would be 2d4, 1911s would be 2d4+4, M16s would be 2d4+8 and Light 50s would be 2d4+16. This will make large caliber guns extremely dangerous. If you combine it with an extra die then all of those change to 3d4, 3d4+6, 3d4+12 and 3d4+24 respectively. Which is just hideous, falling towards "oh noes! A gun!" style.

 

[Aussiegamer]

One thing to remember is that players have to survive all the encounters, so you can expand your story line and they can enjoy the game, but the NPCs don't.

So any rules that boost damage (either by direct per shot or as a critical) or lower the MDT impacts way more on the players than NPCs.

I found that changing the MDT to include some temp ability damage seems to make the combats a bit more deadly like and also encourages the players not to stand in the middle of the road being shot at.

Another point. Play your NPCs smart, get them to us cover. The players will see the advantages and start doing the same.

 

[mcrow]

One way to do it is to change armor to damage reduction.

Then you can give certain weapons like a high powered rifle AP.


and/or

institue a hit location mechanic. That way any gun could be lethal if the user is well skilled.

This may complicate the rules a bit.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

As a note, I prefer the MDT over WP/VP in part because it puts control of the "darn, I'm dead" situation a little more into the hands of the players. The player can choose to buff his Fort saves with Great Fortitude and can roll an AP on the MDT save as well, as opposed to just making less of a particular resource so damage goes through it faster.

--fje

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

H.T. makes some good points. Let me back up and explain why it is that I want deadlier gun combat:

I would like to engender a certain playstyle in regards to firearms -- not necessarily "realistic", but "smart" and "scary". I want people to think twice about leaping into a gun battle. I want them to take cover. I want them to covet their bullets and only shoot when it is absolutely necessary or worth the cost.

I want to create a PA game where, at first, everything is messed up but not that bad. then resources start dwindling and society breaks down and getting food, water and bullets is as important as "adventuring".

Then you have two issues.

Number one, you need ammunition to be rare. This alone makes guns worth saving for the big fights.

Keep in mind that, realistically, there's no reason for ammunition to run out in the foreseeable future. Literally tons of ammunition is just lying around, both privately owned and in (abandoned in most apocalyptic futures) military bases, and except for custom jobs for certain high-end guns, bullets can be manufactured by dedicated amateurs - which most amateurs would become quite suddenly in the wake of a nuclear/biochem/zombie/alien/whatever apocalypse.

Now, I'm not one to let realism get in the way of genre tropes, and shortfalls of various kinds are definitely a genre trope.

Number two, you need guns to be worth using. This is the bigger problem.

A d20 Modern melee specialist can outdamage a gun specialist and realistically, if you're talking about personal firearms (not heavier caliber, like machine guns), he SHOULD outdamage a gun specialist. Rifles are valuable because they have great range and are easier to use well, not because they do more, or even as much, damage as a greatsword. Pistols are valuable because they're easier to use well and they're smaller than most other weapons.

Many GMs, used to setting up encounters in D&D or other fantasy games, start them at very short ranges and then wonder why guns don't seem terribly dangerous in d20 Modern. At the ranges D&D combat takes place in, you're much better off with a blade than a bullet, so this makes sense. On the other hand, staging encounters at long range makes guns much more deadly. If your opponent is even three rounds worth of running distant, he gets three shots (doing 4d8 damage with an assault rifle on burst fire, BTW, which is enough on average to force a massive damage save from any starting character) before you can attack him. If he's on the roof of a ruined building and you're picking through the rubble in the street, you may never have a way to attack him except by whipping out a ranged weapon.

 

[mcrow]

Then you have two issues.

Number one, you need ammunition to be rare. This alone makes guns worth saving for the big fights.

Keep in mind that, realistically, there's no reason for ammunition to run out in the foreseeable future. Literally tons of ammunition is just lying around, both privately owned and in (abandoned in most apocalyptic futures) military bases, and except for custom jobs for certain high-end guns, bullets can be manufactured by dedicated amateurs - which most amateurs would become quite suddenly in the wake of a nuclear/biochem/zombie/alien/whatever apocalypse.

To add to this ammo can stay good for decades if stored properly. I still use .30-06 rounds my gradpa hand loaded back in the late 70`s ,for deer hunting ,and I get no duds or misfires.

Not to mention manufacturing gunpowder is pretty low tech even to a post apoc world.

 

[IcyCool]

Want to make players think twice about "charging the guns"? There's an easy fix. Guns do their normal damage, unless they are being shot at someone who is one of the following:

Standing in the open (no cover) and is not wearing any sort of anti-bullet armor (kevlar).
Helpless, or a hostage

In those above situations, guns do wound damage instead of vitality damage. So if they are unarmored and standing in the open, they get smacked with wound damage. If they are unarmored and behind cover, they get vitality damage. If they are held helpless (gun to the head type scenario) then they'll get wound damage.

 

[Aussiegamer]

One way to do it is to change armor to damage reduction.

Then you can give certain weapons like a high powered rifle AP.


and/or

institue a hit location mechanic. That way any gun could be lethal if the user is well skilled.

This may complicate the rules a bit.

I did both of these as well, and it is not that much harder to play, you are random on the 15 locations I use, unless you get the feat to aim your shot and hit the location.

 

[mcrow]

I did both of these as well, and it is not that much harder to play, you are random on the 15 locations I use, unless you get the feat to aim your shot and hit the location.

Yeah, i don't find it much more difficult or time consuming.

I use a targeting skill to determine if you hit where you aim.

basically I have the players roll 2 d20 + damage dice in one shot. On d20 to-hit the other for targeting.

If they make both the targeting and to-hit rolls they choose where the hit lands and the MDT is different for each body part. head and chest the two lowest while hands and feet have nearly x4 as the head.

 

[Aussiegamer]

I use a d100, but could easily do a d20 location.

I have

head (+2 AC)
neck (+4AC)
torso (0AC)
upper arm (Left and right) (+2 AC)
lower am (+2 AC)
hand (+4AC)
upper leg (+2 AC)
lower leg (+2 AC)
foot (+4AC)