D&D 5E Making sense of D&D's Lore, History and Cosmology

[Warpiglet-7]

I can think of one reason to bother - so that you know enough of it to choose what you want.

I don’t think you have to unify and make sense of multiple editions’ take on lore to decide what you like.

in fact you might not be able to make it line up, as seems to be the case. I still think you can pick the parts that appeal.

 

[Umbran]

I don’t think you have to unify and make sense of multiple editions’ take on lore to decide what you like.

Please go back and see where "have to..." was mentioned. We'll wait...

(...Musak version of The Girl From Ipanema plays...)

Okay, so, having established that his was a strawman, can we move on?

Next time, when someone mentions a possible tool, please don't recast it as a necessary thing in order to dismiss it. Thanks.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Please go back and see where "have to..." was mentioned. We'll wait...

(...Musak version of The Girl From Ipanema plays...)

Okay, so, having established that his was a strawman, can we move on?

Next time, when someone mentions a possible tool, please don't recast it as a necessary thing in order to dismiss it. Thanks.

your response seemed pedantic so I just drew attention to it.

your response to that was to parse words and make a semantic argument.

Ok. You win? I don’t think I have anything to drive home at this point.

 

[dave2008]

whats a clusterbleep? Non native speaker just asking trolling

The mod edited the language - it was: cluster something else before

 

[Richards]

I've always preferred the term "clusterboink," myself.

Johnathan

 

[Urriak Uruk]

This is highly edition dependent. In 1e, Gary seemed to assume a gods relative power was based on its worship on a plane and its overal power was based on its total worship (at least I think it was Gary who wrote the article in Dragon). Of course, that is somewhat contradicted by 1e Deities and Demigods.

Regarding primordials, there is a difference between the lore and the stats provided (in 4e). On several occasions the lore describes how it took multiple gods (usually 3) to bind or imprison or slay some primordials; while other times a god could slay a primordial 1v1. I think primordials seemed to cover a range from at least lesser to greater or higher rank deity

I'm not really sure if you're disagreeing with me? I did say in my post that you should treat 5E material as the most relevant, as the current edition lore overrides that of previous editions (or at least it should if you care about "canon").

Although it seems consistent that more worshippers = more power, this doesn't seem universally true either. The biggest example being that Overgods like Ao are more powerful than any other divine rank, but have few if any worshippers. This metric also doesn't seem to apply to every setting either, as in Eberron there are many faiths but true gods don't (seem to) exist.

Saying that 4E primordials power isn't consistent with 5E's stats isn't that relevant here; the 5E stats represent primordial's power level, at least how powerful they are in the age of mortals. The only gods that are statted up are Tiamat and Auril, which are both Lesser Deities. Tiamat is CR 30, the most powerful official creature in the game other than perhaps the Tarrasque. Auril's forms combined are about comparable to a CR 17 creature. The most powerful primordial statted is Magaera at CR 23, the weakest primordial being CR 18. So they both cover pretty broad ranges, though it certainly seems like the most "active" and free primordials tend to be weaker, while the most powerful were imprisoned or slain.

For example, Erek-Hus was the primordial who slew Io, but inadvertently created Bahamut and Tiamat who in turn slew him. Erek-Hus was probably stronger than even a lesser deity if it took Tiamat (CR 30) and Bahamut (likely near 30) to take down.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

One thing I don't particularly care for is the power level (or even existence) of deities being based on their number of worshippers. Planescape hits that hard, and while I use Planescape as my baseline, I reject that point. Basically, the way I look at it, when you're divine, you stay divine, unless wrought upon by some other force. You don't need belief just to fuel your existence. I do say that your worshippers determine whether (and how much) you can exercise influence on a world or in a crystal sphere. And they might cause your power level to fluctuate slightly (but not enough to mechanically cause you to change status between demipower, lesser power, greater power rankings). With regards to powers dying due to lack of worshippers, I just say that a lot of people in Planescape areas believe they died because of lack of worshippers, but that's not really true. It might have made them vulnerable, but they actually got their head lopped off by another power that didn't like them or something. And I like the sort of stealth take 5e added that deities are just as able to return from the dead as mortals are. 3e Deities & Demigods contradicts the Planescape lore on that point in any event, and it's one of the rare cases where I go with an actual contradiction from 3e.

 

[cbwjm]

One thing I don't particularly care for is the power level (or even existence) of deities being based on their number of worshippers. Planescape hits that hard, and while I use Planescape as my baseline, I reject that point. Basically, the way I look at it, when you're divine, you stay divine, unless wrought upon by some other force. You don't need belief just to fuel your existence. I do say that your worshippers determine whether (and how much) you can exercise influence on a world or in a crystal sphere. And they might cause your power level to fluctuate slightly (but not enough to mechanically cause you to change status between demipower, lesser power, greater power rankings). With regards to powers dying due to lack of worshippers, I just say that a lot of people in Planescape areas believe they died because of lack of worshippers, but that's not really true. It might have made them vulnerable, but they actually got their head lopped off by another power that didn't like them or something. And I like the sort of stealth take 5e added that deities are just as able to return from the dead as mortals are. 3e Deities & Demigods contradicts the Planescape lore on that point in any event, and it's one of the rare cases where I go with an actual contradiction from 3e.

I was never too fond of the requirement to have worshippers for gods to exist, makes mythology where the gods create the universe a bit difficult to fathom. I do kind of use it by combining it with the power level of the god. At minimum they might be a lesser or demi-power. They might also gain power from their realm or from being head or the pantheon (and being cast down from ruling the pantheon could shift a greater god to a lesser).

 

[dave2008]

I'm not really sure if you're disagreeing with me? I did say in my post that you should treat 5E material as the most relevant, as the current edition lore overrides that of previous editions (or at least it should if you care about "canon").

Although it seems consistent that more worshippers = more power, this doesn't seem universally true either. The biggest example being that Overgods like Ao are more powerful than any other divine rank, but have few if any worshippers. This metric also doesn't seem to apply to every setting either, as in Eberron there are many faiths but true gods don't (seem to) exist.

I was just commenting; neither agreeing or disagreeing. Though I agree it varies. I personally do not have worshipers = divine power in my games.

Saying that 4E primordials power isn't consistent with 5E's stats isn't that relevant here; the 5E stats represent primordial's power level, at least how powerful they are in the age of mortals. The only gods that are statted up are Tiamat and Auril, which are both Lesser Deities. Tiamat is CR 30, the most powerful official creature in the game other than perhaps the Tarrasque. Auril's forms combined are about comparable to a CR 17 creature. The most powerful primordial statted is Magaera at CR 23, the weakest primordial being CR 18. So they both cover pretty broad ranges, though it certainly seems like the most "active" and free primordials tend to be weaker, while the most powerful were imprisoned or slain.

I wasn't comparing 4e stats to 5e stats. I was comparing 4e stats to the 4e lore. In 4e it took Bahamut, Moradin, and Kord(?) to subdue Maul-Tar, yet its level was only a 34 solo while Bahamut was lvl 36 solo alone.

Also, the most powerful monster in 5e is actually mythic Tromokratis from Theros (180,000 XP vs 155,000 XP for Tiamat). Personally I wouldn't call anything below a CR 26 a primordial, but of course WotC can do whatever they want.

For example, Erek-Hus was the primordial who slew Io, but inadvertently created Bahamut and Tiamat who in turn slew him. Erek-Hus was probably stronger than even a lesser deity if it took Tiamat (CR 30) and Bahamut (likely near 30) to take down.

Well Io is generally considered a greater deity, so Erek-Hus was likely at least similarly as powerful.

 

[dave2008]

One thing I don't particularly care for is the power level (or even existence) of deities being based on their number of worshippers. Planescape hits that hard, and while I use Planescape as my baseline, I reject that point. Basically, the way I look at it, when you're divine, you stay divine, unless wrought upon by some other force. You don't need belief just to fuel your existence. I do say that your worshippers determine whether (and how much) you can exercise influence on a world or in a crystal sphere. And they might cause your power level to fluctuate slightly (but not enough to mechanically cause you to change status between demipower, lesser power, greater power rankings). With regards to powers dying due to lack of worshippers, I just say that a lot of people in Planescape areas believe they died because of lack of worshippers, but that's not really true. It might have made them vulnerable, but they actually got their head lopped off by another power that didn't like them or something. And I like the sort of stealth take 5e added that deities are just as able to return from the dead as mortals are. 3e Deities & Demigods contradicts the Planescape lore on that point in any event, and it's one of the rare cases where I go with an actual contradiction from 3e.

Yep. I never tie deities solely to worship. IMO, deities can gain some power from worshipers, but is only a small fraction of their power.