Making the Kobold a playable race

[redkobold]

I am also a big fan of kobolds. I have a 31 page draft article on Kobolds that I am planning to submit for EN World Players Journal. Many of the concepts that you guys are describing here are in the draft as well as a lot of explanation and description for kobold physiology and culture as it relates to dragons and reptiles.

If any of you are interested in reviewing the article, contributing, and/or playtesting its content please contact me and I will email the draft to you for your personal use review. I just want to make clear that I retain the copyright even though the majority of the article will be OGC.

If interested, email me at

kevin@lyonstudio.com

 

[DrSpunj]

Umm.. I'll quote how I see fit, thanks...

As you wish. I actually brought it up in case you didn't realize you were doing it (i.e. habit). Both here and on the Yahoo board you almost always include an entire post (or even multiple posts) in your replies. I wasn't sure if it was a choice on your part or not, and if so, what you believe it accomplishes?

And you're right--looking back through this thread you did have a single post where you quoted and didn't use the entire message (#35 IYI).

My apologies.

And LyonStudio, I'm certainly interested in the material as I'm probably going to use Kobolds as one of the major races in a campaign I'm currently working on. Since that's a major work in progress I can't really promise I'd be up for playtesting your material (as I'm not sure when that campaign will start), but I am interested in it. Since you already have my email from our trading (same handle) I'll send a request in the next couple days if I don't receive anything from you.

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

Ot

...ummm...what's your beef with them again?

... the Core rules would allow someone to read in the dark; after all, a book is typically black on a white background.

Exactly that. That's the problem.

Restated: I dislike darkvision being able to see colors. "Black" and "white" are colors. Ergo......

As for "scent", et al: I'd like one mechanic to deal with all of these senses. I dislike multiple, comflicting mechanics. Example: Spot, sense, blindsight, Listen. And you yourself have stated your own dislike for "automatic" abilities, such as the Deflect Arrows feat. Scent or blindsight seems like one of those as well: automatic enemy detectors.

So far I have been using a Spot check with a modifier. Perhaps that's unwarranted or not mechanically elegant.

...I'm reading through Wulf's SH again and found this post by you. You're last comment there struck me as extremely ironically funny after reading your last couple posts here and past discussions about Scent!

I glad to provide humor where I can.

The "Wulf" example is about "realism"; hence my post in that thread. That's not what I'm talking about here.

Darkvision is not real, nor am I arguing about how darkvision would really work in the real world. I am stating a preference, a view of what I think makes sense, given a typical fantasy setting. (Counter example: "All magical beasts can see perfectly in the dark? Why?") I am also aware that others do not share my view on the subject.....one of the reasons I've held off doing anything about it.

Surely everyone has certain "pet peeves" in the system that they'd change given a chance? And surely this change does not affect you or the other players significantly? If it does, and you think I've missed something, please let me know. Finally, most of this change involves monsters, rather than players, a pervue of the DM, right?

Now then: back to kobolds!

 

[Nail]

... I have a 31 page draft article on Kobolds that I am planning to submit for EN World Players Journal.

Yowsza!

I wish I had time this week to read it. ....sigh...I do not. Perhaps I can ask you for a preview next week.

 

[Nail]

I've at last had time to digest the most exellent suggestions from DrSpunj and Videssian. Thanks guys! Special thanks for being patient with a DM that likes to wander around a bit, before settling down to business.

Kobolds: How to build a ECL +0 race

The biggest thing that struck me about this conversation is the idea that "a race should be balanced with respct to its favored class". That's not something that has occured to me, in part because WotC hasn't acknowledged that design parameter. So I've come away from this thinking, "Huh. I hadn't thought of that."

Is this true for all races? Especially the non-standard (MM) ones? Probably not. There are several current NPCs I have which use this imbalance to their advantage. But it does seem to be mostly true for the standard races, especially half-orcs and gnomes. (For dwarves? Maybe not. )

My original concept was to build a race that isn't necessarily focused into one class. I'd like it's abilities to be broad - interesting - and provide small but noticable perks. For the kobold, that would be the skill bonuses and cantrip selection.

But DrSpunj is right: we need to balnace kobolds vs their favored class of sorcerer. And to do that......(I can't believe we're saying this) ....we need to increase their Stength.

Wow.

Kytum-up's going to be happy, anyway. (That's our Kobold paladin NPC.) He's not gonna be happy about losing AC or Con, though.

Kobolds -Version 5
KOBOLD CHARACTERS
Kobold characters possess the following racial traits:

• –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Charisma.
• Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
• A kobold’s base land speed is 30'.
• Darkvision 60' (and associated Light Sensitivity: dazzled in sunlight or magic that duplicates bright light, like the Daylight spell)
• Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), Search, and Sense Motive checks.
• Natural Armor +1
• Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—mending, message. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + kobold’s Cha modifier + spell level.
• Weapon Familiarity: Kobolds treat repeating crossbows as martial weapons, rather than exotic ones.
• Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon.
• Favored Class: Sorcerer.
• Level Adjustment +0

Comments: (all "IMHO", of course.)

• Kobold prefer ranged attacks, and mechanical devices, thus their weapon familiarity. I don't see them charging into toe-to-toe melee weilding Dire Picks.....
• I agree kobolds might be able to Bluff better than others....but I think that's adequately reflected in their increase to Chr. They are also deeply suspicious of others, espeically the "big races", and practice ways to figure out what other's true intentions are. Thus Sense Motive. Perhaps this could be more focused? +4 vs medium humaniods? (That's probably needlessly complicated.)

What do you all think about Monte Cook's racial system? With levels of races? I think it's quite elegant and cool.

 

[DrSpunj]

As for "scent", et al: I'd like one mechanic to deal with all of these senses. I dislike multiple, comflicting mechanics. Example: Spot, sense, blindsight, Listen. And you yourself have stated your own dislike for "automatic" abilities, such as the Deflect Arrows feat. Scent or blindsight seems like one of those as well: automatic enemy detectors.

Well, yes and no. I believe anyone pumping a lot into the Hide skill would defeat these with a good roll (reference: Arnold coming out of the mud and attacking the Predator despite the latter's Infravision) and I haven't seen a lot in the rules to support or refute that, so that's currently my interpretation. Otherwise Hide becomes essentially a useless skill after just a few levels. YMMV.

Furthermore, while they are nearly automatic area detectors, they are not automatic square/space detectors. So a Dog or Snake (or whatever) "knows" something is within 30' of them as soon as they come within range. Big deal! It's 30'! How much closer do you need to be before you spring your ambush or surprise on someone? By spending a MEA they can pinpoint the current direction of whomever they're scenting. Only by moving within 5' can they pinpoint the actual square/space. That's 2-3 turns of trying to track down "whoever's out there", and all they have to is move more than 5' away (if invisible) and it practically starts all over again.

Are you going to House Rule Tieran's new Bat Familiar's Blindsight as well? Tremorsense?

The various senses may seem redundant but I don't think they are overly cumbersome, personally. You just have to be clear about what trumps what.

Invisibility trumps Sight (unless an epic Spot check is involved)
Scent trumps Invisibility
IMO, a good Hide roll trumps Scent (this way Invisibility is better for those with a good Hide skill, which makes sense to me), though I use the standard +4 Scent bonus to the creature's Spot check for this like they get with Survival while Tracking
etc.

Everything in the game has a possible counter, except a very few absolutes like that Deflect Arrows thingy!

But I do agree with simplifying things a bit because a couple sets of skills seem redundant. I like how Monte combined Hide & Move Silently into a single skill, Sneak, for instance. Otherwise anyone trying to sneak around gets FOUR chances to get caught: a poor Hide check, a poor Move Silently check, a good Spot check or a good Listen check. I'm surprised anyone is able to move stealthily at all after 4 rolls!

I already use Sneak IMC and I'm probably going to combine Listen & Spot into Awareness or Perception next time around. That simplifies sneaking around into a single, simple opposed roll like you find nearly everywhere else in the game.

So far I have been using a Spot check with a modifier. Perhaps that's unwarranted or not mechanically elegant.

I'm not sure either, I just don't like how it seems arbitrary and/or random. If you can take the time to coalesce your thoughts into a House Rule I'd be a lot less worried/upset by it. Until then it honestly just seems like you nerf an ability that rears its head in the middle of your DM plans with an extra modified dice roll or two. That's why that quote of yours made me chuckle when I read it yesterday.

Surely everyone has certain "pet peeves" in the system that they'd change given a chance?

Absolutely! It's just changes like that are best done, IMO, away from the game table, between sessions. The Scent thing has come up time and again for the last year we've been gaming together and still isn't clear to me. It's very frustrating as a player, as I'm sure you're aware, to feel like the rules don't matter or are only used when convenient. When you make a House Rule that all of us can read and agree on it's not a big deal. Until then all we have are bad feelings on both sides.

So, to summarize, I don't mind if you want to House Rule stuff; that's absolutely your prerogative as the DM, but as a player in your game I'd like to know what's been changed and I'd like to have it uploaded to the document you've got on the board, and preferably before it becomes relevant at the gaming table. Monsters are yours alone, but the abilities our familiars, companions and magic duplicate/share mean those rules affect us directly as well.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

Kobold prefer ranged attacks, and mechanical devices, thus their weapon familiarity. I don't see them charging into toe-to-toe melee weilding Dire Picks.....

Good, that's how I picture them in the Eaglesford world, too. I just wasn't sure how far you'd gone with the whole "miner" aspect of their culture and if it was pretty far and I just hadn't see that side of them yet, then a melee weapon may make some sense. I thought that's where Videssian was coming from since I figured he'd been given a "briefing on Kobolds" after choosing Kefk. But from what I have seen, I think the Repeating Xbow makes a ton of sense.

I agree kobolds might be able to Bluff better than others....but I think that's adequately reflected in their increase to Chr. They are also deeply suspicious of others, espeically the "big races", and practice ways to figure out what other's true intentions are. Thus Sense Motive. Perhaps this could be more focused? +4 vs medium humaniods? (That's probably needlessly complicated.)

It makes as much sense as Bluff to me (Cautious vs Crafty/Cunning), but I like the straightforward +2 we've been using.

Since everything else is identical to v_4 this works for me.

What do you all think about Monte Cook's racial system? With levels of races? I think it's quite elegant and cool.

It is, and I like the mechanical aspects of it. The only problem is...I can't imagine what someone with racial levels looks like or does as compared to a member of their race without racial levels. I just can't picture it.

What's an elf with elf levels? The text indicates it's like an "elf's elf". To me that's like describing someone as a "man's man", which definitely paints some sort of picture but not as much as if someone says "barbarian", for instance. Using racial levels for monsters with LAs makes a lot of sense, as I can picture them growing into their racial abilities. That works for Faen and Giants as they both evolve a bit with their racial levels, but the others I just can't really imagine. For them the racial levels seem to exaggerate what they already are. While that's not bad I just can't mentally put a 3rd level Human next to a 1st level Human, or a Human Commoner, and "see" it. If you or anyone else help me with that I'd really appreciate it. It's a mental stumbling block that's keeping me from really being able to use them.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

It is, and I like the mechanical aspects of it. The only problem is...I can't imagine what someone with racial levels looks like or does as compared to a member of their race without racial levels. I just can't picture it.

What's an elf with elf levels? The text indicates it's like an "elf's elf". To me that's like describing someone as a "man's man", which definitely paints some sort of picture but not as much as if someone says "barbarian", for instance. Using racial levels for monsters with LAs makes a lot of sense, as I can picture them growing into their racial abilities. That works for Faen and Giants as they both evolve a bit with their racial levels, but the others I just can't really imagine. For them the racial levels seem to exaggerate what they already are. While that's not bad I just can't mentally put a 3rd level Human next to a 1st level Human, or a Human Commoner, and "see" it. If you or anyone else help me with that I'd really appreciate it. It's a mental stumbling block that's keeping me from really being able to use them.

Don't know if this is helpful, but here's how I see it...

You ever meet anyone with an unusually strong presence to them? Not necessarily charisma, but just an air of... significance, for lack of a better word. I knew a guy once, he was actually sort of mousey, and he was a substitute teacher at my high school, a rather unassuming job. He was also a very pleasant, gregarious fellow who seemed to remember everything about every person he met, with a penchant for handing out newspaper articles he thought you might be interested in. He could even be called a bit odd. But you just always felt like there was more to him than you saw. And even the kids that made fun of every teacher (and especially substitutes) seemed to show him an odd sort of respect. And no one knew why. Turns out he was about 10 years older than he looked, he had been a philosophy major in college, worked the pipeline in Alaska, worked his way all over Europe, climbed Everest, and had returned home to take care of his ailing mother, which is what led to the substitute job. And that just scratches the surface of what this guy had done with his life by the age of 35.

I like to think that he had a couple levels of Human. He had personally experienced so much of life without nailing himself down into a niche, or any specific role.

Hope that helps.

 

[redkobold]

I am also a big fan of kobolds. I have a 31 page draft article on Kobolds that I am planning to submit for EN World Players Journal. Many of the concepts that you guys are describing here are in the draft as well as a lot of explanation and description for kobold physiology and culture as it relates to dragons, reptiles, and their environment.

If any of you are interested in reviewing the article, contributing, and/or playtesting its content please contact me and I will email the draft to you for your personal use review. I just want to make clear that I retain the copyright even though the majority of the article will be OGC.

If interested, email me at

kevin@lyonstudio.com

 

[DrSpunj]

Hope that helps.

You know, it does.

Actually the point that starts to drive it home was your closing statement:

I like to think that he had a couple levels of Human. He had personally experienced so much of life without nailing himself down into a niche, or any specific role.

I think that's what I've been trying to do with these racial levels, is peg them into a hole. Pulling back and objectively not doing that may allow me to at least start thinking about them from a different POV.

Cool!

Thanks!

DrSpunj