Malhavoc's Mindscapes

[Benben]

Why are ability modifiers not used in psionic combat? Why is a DEX 18, CHR 8 psion just as good with CHR modes as with DEX modes? Doesn't that make them not really DEX modes? (I understand that the results tie to DEX, but that seems secondary to the mechanics of combat)

This avoid specialization of modes, and pushes psionic combatants to adapt to their mindscape.

I'm very happy to see the disconnect, as it will keep things a bit more even in psionic combat.

 

[BryonD]

This avoid specialization of modes, and pushes psionic combatants to adapt to their mindscape.

I'm very happy to see the disconnect, as it will keep things a bit more even in psionic combat.

Can you expand on that?

I don't see any benefit in any of it.

Why would using ability mods be less even? A CHA 18 psion and a DEX 18 psion would still be even. And heavy connection to the various abilities is a fudamental part of psionics, so it seems out of place to dump it here.

How will they adapt to their mindscapes? This make adapting a little less important. If I had an 8 CHR, a cavern mindscape would be a little bit of a hinderance to me because that is my weak ability, so I would need to try to adapt. But, as is, I am just as good in a cavern as anywhere else. Boring.

Really, the whole ability aspect is token at best. It may have been better to just toy with the symantics a bit more. Why is plains tied to STR modes, when STR modes don't really have anything to do with STR? Why not just call them Plains Modes?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

No ability modifiers, please

1) Psychic warriors don't have a primary ability score.
2) Picture an egoist using Shapechange into a creature with very high Strength.
3) Psionic monsters don't have a primary ability score. If they don't have one, they're underpowered. If they pick their highest score - think neothelid or topaz dragon - then they're overpowered.

 

[BryonD]

Re: No ability modifiers, please

1) Psychic warriors don't have a primary ability score.
2) Picture an egoist using Shapechange into a creature with very high Strength.
3) Psionic monsters don't have a primary ability score. If they don't have one, they're underpowered. If they pick their highest score - think neothelid or topaz dragon - then they're overpowered.

Points 1 and 3 are irrelevant. A Stength Mode check should use strength. Primary abilities are completely separate. A nomad would still use STR for Brain Hammer, just as a psy warrior or any psionic monster would.

A Great Wyrm Topaz Dragon can pound you with Brain Hammer. OK, what is the problem there? That +5 to one attack is really going to make the dragon overpowered.....

Point 2 is somewhat valid. But I don't see how that answers any of the questions I asked. Why even call Brain Hammer a STR mode? And again, being the same for everything is boring.

And anyway, if the egoist does make his already 19+ STR any higher, is that REALLY that big a deal? A 18+ level character with Shapechange gets a bonus of +5 for a single attack. His super strong form will already be very dangerous in melee.

I saw that you were a playtester, were any of these concerns covered through revisions?

You go to the extent of having a full page of combat modes, and they boil down 2 different modifier progressions and a small variety of effects.

 

[BryonD]

BTW, Mindscapes is a GREAT book. I am focusing on one isssue that I, so far, find quite dissapointing. But the book is a great purchase.

And Mindscape psionic combat blows the doors off the standard system.

I just find it boring, counter-intuitive, and contrary to the base system that a Telepath is just as good at Body Tank as a Savant.

Instead of 6 flavors, we get vanilla.

Obviously, I can just house rule it. But I am asking, because I want to understand the reasoning before I start tweaking. I'd still like more input.

 

[Benben]

Can you expand on that?

I don't see any benefit in any of it.

It makes the process more immune to inflation due to magical items and powers. It makes choice of the mindscape and the correct applications of powers very important. If the die roll was tied to an attribute, then it would be very easy to ignore the mindscape bonus and just focus on boosting one stat by any means necessary to win the mindscape battle.

 

[BryonD]

It makes the process more immune to inflation due to magical items and power. It makes choice of the mindscape and the correct applications of powers very important. If the die roll was tied to an attribute, then it would be very easy to ignore the mindscape bonus and just focus on boosting the stat by any means necessary to win the mindscape battle.

OK, well, I still disagree.

The mindscape type bonus becomes a minor factor very soon anyway.

And if you calibrate the mechanics to consider Ability mods, it is very simple to just make the mindscape type modifiers higher than +2 if you want them to be more important.

And if both sides of the battle are using good ability bonuses, they will more or less cancel out anyway. So balance isn't even a problem.

So I think you are giving away having different psions have different styles, in order to protect a mechanical balance that is not really threatened.

 

[Benben]

I just find it boring, counter-intuitive, and contrary to the base system that a Telepath is just as good at Body Tank as a Savant.

Instead of 6 flavors, we get vanilla.

Obviously, I can just house rule it. But I am asking, because I want to understand the reasoning before I start tweaking. I'd still like more input.

Okay let's say I have an Egoist with Str 18 and all other attributes at 12.

If the mindscape system did tie modes with stats, why would I *ever* any other mode than the one tied to str.

The system as presented in Mindscapes has Psions switching between all the modes depending on the environment of the mindscape, or the action they want to take if they win.

To me it isn't vanilla, it's very tactical.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Why even call Brain Hammer a STR mode? And again, being the same for everything is boring.

For the first, it's just a name. I'm not sure why they had ability score names attached to them - I usually called them Plains, or Ocean, etc.

For the second, it really depends on what your character is doing at the time, and on the Mindscape that they are in. A psion or psychic warrior can sometimes change the nature of the Mindscape to try to get the bonuses they want, and even if you're not in a Mountain mindscape you might still want to use a Mountain mode (eg a psychic warrior trying to boost their Will saves against a telepath).

In addition, you would end up always using the mode attached to your highest ability score, which could also be seen as boring , rather than the mode that is most useful to the situation.

Points 1 and 3 are irrelevant.

I wouldn't call Point 3 irrelevant although I see you were asking a different question (eg use the named ability, rather than your primary ability). Of course, that would make Point 1 irrelevant

Ability score inflation is something to worry about, IMO. Not only is Animal Affinity really easy to abuse, so is Polymorph Self and Shapechange. In addition, a creature with a really high ability score could ensure that it always wins a Mindscape contest, even if it picks a -4 "intense" mode, especially against a psychic warrior.

Anyway, it's your campaign, so house rule it as you see fit.

And if you calibrate the mechanics to consider Ability mods, it is very simple to just make the mindscape type modifiers higher than +2 if you want them to be more important.

Seems like a good house rule.

 

[BryonD]

For the first, it's just a name. I'm not sure why they had ability score names attached to them - I usually called them Plains, or Ocean, etc.

Cool, that makes more sense to me.

In addition, you would end up always using the mode attached to your highest ability score, which could also be seen as boring , rather than the mode that is most useful to the situation.

The same general arguement could be made for the entire psionics system then. The abilities you MAY use and the effectiveness (at least DC) of them are determined by the relevant ability. So it is boring, right? Wrong.

Plus, regardless of which way is boring, why is a Con 10 Telepath just as good at Body Tank as a Con 20 savant?

Generally, the effects provided by winning a round of psionic combat are pretty minor. I think that is a good thing. But to have all of the tactics hinge on selection of which minor perk you will get is much more boring to me than the alternative. The alternative being that the telepath will tend to go for empathic multiplier or psychic subdual, those being his strong points. If at some point he feels that he really needs body tank, he has to decide if he is willing to gamble a weaker roll for that benefit. Much more interesting tactics then letting the chance to get any given perk be more or less the same for otherwise completely different psions of the same level.

Ability score inflation is something to worry about, IMO. Not only is Animal Affinity really easy to abuse, so is Polymorph Self and Shapechange. In addition, a creature with a really high ability score could ensure that it always wins a Mindscape contest, even if it picks a -4 "intense" mode, especially against a psychic warrior.

Can be. But doesn't it cancel out? Inflation is available to both sides. And psionic monsters tend to have really high ability scores, so, if anything, it will go against the player. But again, so what? The effects are static. At low levels, the effects are nice perks, but the chance to abuse ability scores is very limited. As you gain levels, the relative worth of the effects diminishes. For example, if I bump my CON up to 26, the +8 bonus to body tank will tend to give me a DR between 1 and 5 against other psionic opponents, some of the time. But it will also give me a nice chuck of hit points. I just can't see Body Tank as being the driving motive here. Sure, it is a perk. But you are not going to break the game with any of the combat mode effects. (Unless you have CON 26 at level 3, in whcih case your game may have bigger problems).

A little background -

My wife's character in my game is a psion 10. I set up a reference table for her to have during play. When I first did it, I included all the ability score bonuses. Then I went back and read again and realized my mistake. The reference table quickly went from a bunch of cost/benefit options, to a big list of redundant modifiers.

Anyway, it's your campaign, so house rule it as you see fit.

Well sure. But I have only had the book for a little over 24 hours. I am trying to gather more information before I start hacking the system. I greatly appreciate that playtesters, such as yourself, are available to bounce these thoughts off of.

Seems like a good house rule.

Maybe. The actual nature of the mindscapes seem to be mainly flavor. And the bonus gives a little nudge to enhance that flavor. I can see why it could be fun to have that be much more important. But I don't see that it is needed.