Malhavoc's Mindscapes

[Benben]

I hope you'll forgive the change in quoting styles. I want to addres some of your points directly.

> And if one or two abilities are really low, such that they become
> truly undersirable, GOOD, THAT makes interesting tactics.

Low stats can be completely ignored by boosting one stat to obscene levels. This might not allow the psion to have a wide variety of tactical chocies but if gives the psion the equivalent of a nearly unbeatable defense.

As a player I'm not going to care what goodies I can get in a round if I can eliminate the chance of the opponent gaining an advantage over me.

> Why is a CON 10 telepath just as good at body tank as a
> CON 20 savant?

Because this is in a realm where the psion has no connection with his or her body. This is a realm where the avatars are idealized: smarter, stronger, more beautiful, or more horrific.

As a DM I absolutely love how this system completely removes the physical body and mind from the equation. It levels the playing field between specialists and generalists. I really don't want to deal with psions begging to be polymorphed into stone giants so they can beat the snot out of the mindflayer in a psionic duel.

 

[BryonD]

Low stats can be completely ignored by boosting one stat to obscene levels. This might not allow the psion to have a wide variety of tactical chocies but if gives the psion the equivalent of a nearly unbeatable defense.

Nope. Because you opponent is doing the same thing. Cancels out.

As a player I'm not going to care what goodies I can get in a round if I can eliminate the chance of the opponent gaining an advantage over me.

And so does your opponent. Cancels out.

Because this is in a realm where the psion has no connection with his or her body. This is a realm where the avatars are idealized: smarter, stronger, more beautiful, or more horrific.

Which brings us back to the question "Why are they called <<ability>> modes?" To which the answer appear to be "It was a poor choice."

Can you explain that? With you interpretation, what is a STR mode?

As a DM I absolutely love how this system completely removes the physical body and mind from the equation. It levels the playing field between specialists and generalists. I really don't want to deal with psions begging to be polymorphed into stone giants so they can beat the snot out of the mindflayer in a psionic duel.

First, that flies in the face of the core psionics system.

Second, your example defeats itself.
A Stone giant is 14 HD and a STR of 27.

A CR8 Mind Flayer has an INT of 19.
So you get a +4 bonus against a creature 6 CRs below you. You need lessons in power gaming.

 

[Benben]

Nope. Because you opponent is doing the same thing. Cancels out.

And so does your opponent. Cancels out.

It cancels out because we have an arms race for bonuses.

Which brings us back to the question "Why are they called <<ability>> modes?" To which the answer appear to be "It was a poor choice."

Can you explain that? With you interpretation, what is a STR mode?

I'll agree that they are poorly named. Calling them the Psychometabolic/Telepathic/Clairsentient modes would have shown how these psionic disciplines are abstracted in the mindscape.

First, that flies in the face of the core psionics system.

No not at all. The core psionic combat system had a total reliance on the wisdom scores of the characters and their will saves. The change to mindscapes allows characters to compete no matter what their discipline or their will save.

Second, your example defeats itself.
A Stone giant is 14 HD and a STR of 27.

A CR8 Mind Flayer has an INT of 19.
So you get a +4 bonus against a creature 6 CRs below you. You need lessons in power gaming.

An 7th level wizard can polymorph a psion into a stone giant. This is an equal CR fight.

If you are going to make personal snipes this discussion isn't worth having.

Nobody is stopping you from house ruling your game. Enjoy.

 

[Particle_Man]

old modes redux

Some of the old modes-cum-powers are too tough for their level, I think. Id Insinuation, Mind Thrust and Psychic Crush are like the spell Ray of Enfeeblement except Ray of Enfeeblement gives the victim a save. Solution? Give the three modes a will save.

I also have an alternate for Ego Whip. Make it a level 0 power and say that it makes the target's initiative a measly "1 + targets init bonus" (instead of the rolled initiative). If the target was readying an action, then that ready is lost, but the target could "re-ready" when his turn comes around again.

And as for the abilities on new modes question -- If one combatant has uber-strength, and nothing else, and the other combatant has uber-int, and nothing else, why would either combatant risk using any mode not in their sphere of power, if abilities affected modes? It would just set them up to be pimp-slapped by the other guy, since they could not possibly win except in the extremely rare case where BOTH combatants risked not using the modes tied to their respective uber-stats. Therefore there would be less variety, therefore combat would be less tactical and more boring. So I like the idea of not tying abilities to mindscape combat modes. If it helps, one could take the names off and replace them with terrain names, since their current purpose it to categorize the 12 modes by how their chances of success are affected, or not, by the terrain.

Another option might be to create a feat: Increase Mode bonus-- "You can increase the power of the mode bonus of modes associated with one ability score (str, int, wis, etc.) by +2. This feat may be taken up to six times, each time applying to a different ability score. Characters (such as psions) with a primary ability get a +3 increase in that ability instead of +2"

There, now I hope that everyone is happy.

 

[BryonD]

It cancels out because we have an arms race for bonuses.

So now you are agreeing with me?

How is this different than the rest of 3E?

No not at all. The core psionic combat system had a total reliance on the wisdom scores of the characters and their will saves. The change to mindscapes.

I am not talking about the core psionic COMBAT system. I never liked it and never used it. I am talking about the core psionics system overall.

Your interpretation flies in the face of that.

An 7th level wizard can polymorph a psion into a stone giant. This is an equal CR fight.

Wrong. A level 7 wizard can cast poly other, but is limited to creatures less than his own HD or the targets base HD. So at party level 7 or 8 you are limited to 7 or 8 HD forms.

If you are going to make personal snipes this discussion isn't worth having.

OK. I'm sorry if pointing out numeric facts instead of making sweeping claims hurts your feeling so badly.

Nobody is stopping you from house ruling your game. Enjoy.

Correct. And I most certainly will enjoy.
In the mean time, if anyone can provide me with a solid arguement for why my proposed change would be bad, I am very interested in hearing it. I am well aware that there are numerous people who frequent these boards and are more than capable of presenting a strong, logical case.

If one exists, there is a good chance I will hear it. And I will welcome that.

 

[BryonD]

And as for the abilities on new modes question -- If one combatant has uber-strength, and nothing else, and the other combatant has uber-int, and nothing else, why would either combatant risk using any mode not in their sphere of power, if abilities affected modes? It would just set them up to be pimp-slapped by the other guy, since they could not possibly win except in the extremely rare case where BOTH combatants risked not using the modes tied to their respective uber-stats. Therefore there would be less variety, therefore combat would be less tactical and more boring. So I like the idea of not tying abilities to mindscape combat modes. If it helps, one could take the names off and replace them with terrain names, since their current purpose it to categorize the 12 modes by how their chances of success are affected, or not, by the terrain.

This sounds good. But the numbers don't hold up. What is an uber stat? 28? OK, that is +9. If I go to my 14 stat I lose 7 points. Now that is a big loss. But could it be a worthwhile risk? Maybe. And the vast majority of cases will be less extreme.

And if you use ability scores, you have 2 factors to consider. How strong do I want my check to be vs what is the best effect I could use. As it stands, you will always just choose the best effect. So while there may be more variety of selection under the existing system, that in no way implies that tactics are involved. Choosing DR when you need it and AC when you need that is far less tactical than deciding if the DR in the hand is better than the AC in the bush.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

In the mean time, if anyone can provide me with a solid arguement for why my proposed change would be bad, I am very interested in hearing it.

Alright, and my Mind Insurgency argument imploded as well.

I'll try one last time, and then I'll give up

Suppose a savant (and his friends) are facing off against a mind flayer and some grimlock thralls.

They are within 60 ft., and the savant is standing right behind the fighter (so the mind flayer can't rush him and attack with a tentacle, a very unlikely scenario - but the main reason is to get a cover bonus against ranged attacks made by the grimlocks).

The Mindscape is the Plains. The savant gets Initiative. The mind flayer chooses Mind Insurgency. The savant now has to choose... should he take a Plains mode, or maybe boost his Will save with Indomitable Will, or maybe choose Body Tank, since that has the best modifier. So, he chooses ... er ... Body Tank to take the edge off of the soon-to-be-unleashed Mind Blast...

To my mind, if a psion always chooses the same mode, then they won't have as much fun, and using the best option is, IMO, using tactics.

A 9 point difference isn't insurmountable, so it isn't a guaranteed loss, but a taking a large negative modifier is an unpopular decision to make IME - after all, people are motivated to avoid losing a contest and (often) to avoid risk.

Using stat mods is not in itself abusive, but it does open itself to abuse. There was a similar topic at Monte Cook's forum about a feat called (IIRC) Two-Handed Power Strike from one of the Mongoose Publishing books, which let a fighter use double his Strength modifier instead of 1.5 times his Strength modifier when making a full-round attack with a two-handed weapon.

There was a huge debate about that, and I didn't play a big part in it. I did say that it didn't look overpowered, but that it could be abused. Someone replied that if something could be abused, then it is broken.

 

[Benben]

Wrong. A level 7 wizard can cast poly other, but is limited to creatures less than his own HD or the targets base HD. So at party level 7 or 8 you are limited to 7 or 8 HD forms.

Please replace stone giant then with a 7HD, monstrous humanoid Annis Hag: Str 25.

 

[BryonD]

Please replace stone giant then with a 7HD, monstrous humanoid Annis Hag: Str 25.

Happy to.

Now, you have used a L4 spell to gain a +3 advantage.

The problem here is?

And please tell me, which is the mind flayer more afraid of:

The Annis Hag Fighter bearing down on him with a Greatsword, or the Annis Hag Psion about to get +3 or +5 to hit against him?

Is the real problem here:
A) my version of mindscape combat
B) Abuse of High ability Scores
C) problems with poly other
D) there is no problem

I think D, with a tiny bit of creedance to C.

 

[BryonD]

To my mind, if a psion always chooses the same mode, then they won't have as much fun, and using the best option is, IMO, using tactics.

I don't consider it to be using tactics when there really isn't any great consideration of which is best.

Dale Jarrett can race his car or the big brown truck tomorrow. One is the best option, but that doesn't make it tactics.

And I am unconvinced that the psion will always choose the same mode. The -9 modifier was, I believe, an example of an extreme case. When the benefit for you best ability is no good, interesting choices arise.

The Mindscape is the Plains. The savant gets Initiative. The mind flayer chooses Mind Insurgency. The savant now has to choose... should he take a Plains mode, or maybe boost his Will save with Indomitable Will, or maybe choose Body Tank, since that has the best modifier. So, he chooses ... er ... Body Tank to take the edge off of the soon-to-be-unleashed Mind Blast...

I think this makes my point.
Under the base mindscape system, it is a no-brainer to take Indomitable Will. So he will do so. Making a no-brainer choice is not tactics.

If he has to choose between a good chance to get the usless DR, but at least prevent the MF from getting a + X DC bonus from his mind insurgency, then he will go with Body Tank and take his chances with the Will save when it comes around. Or, he can take a chance now and Go for Indomitable Will now, he has less chance to win, but it pays off bigger than Body Tank if he does. An interesting choice.

Someone replied that if something could be abused, then it is broken.

Without commenting on the 2 handed feat, I'll ask if you agree with this statement.


And really, if stat mod abuse is already there, this issue is not going to make it any worse. Again, I will point out that the effects of Mindscape combat are quite limited. If a player is pumping up a stat so far as to throw Mindscape combat out of whack, the direct benefits of having that high a stat will greatly overshadow any 20 to 30% increased occurance of getting the relatively minor mindscape combat perks.

Problems with stat mod abuse (which I have not had trouble with in my games) and questionable spell (poly) abuse (which I have) are much bigger than any one application of those abuses.

I'll try one last time, and then I'll give up

Thanks for the input.
You provided some very useful insight into the thinking, even if you did not change my mind.
I appreciate it.