Mana users & Divine channeling

Randolpho

First Post
Bonedagger said:
Uhm.. I don't really know how the psionic system of 3rd ed. works.

I therefore also don't know if a psionic variant would allow the same number of spells as the old slotsystem. That is an important factor here since I didn't want to mess to much with the precious gamebalance.

Heh... understandable. Which is, of course, *why* I suggested 3e Psionics. Because it fits right into the core rules with no ripples. Whatsoever. (IMO) I suggest you pick the book up, or read a friend's copy.

I also wanted to base the rules on a background that IMO had a more mystical feel. I have the feeling that spellcasters in the core rules really just are scietists. I believe that the only reasons psionics made it into the game in the first place was because something was lacking from spellcasting.

Well, there is that. Psionics still has a somewhat scientific feel to it. However, that doesn't *have* to be the case. All you need to do is adopt the *rules* system for casting spells from psionics and allow spells from the normal Wizard/Sorcerer lists rather than the Psionics list. It would be almost totally seamless. Plus, you could look into the psionic items the PsiHB offers and transform them from the new-age-ish crystaline crap to something a bit more... mystical. Things like crystal capacitors, mindfeeder weapons, psionic tatoos, etc.

Or, if you just want something that's different from the current magic system, but don't want pseudo-scientific sounding names (blame scientists for that) then just use Psionics rules unmodified and change the names for things to fit your campaign better. Call psionicists things like Mentalists, or Mystics, or the like.

Regardless, I suggest you start with the 3e Psi HB and mine it for ideas.

Or you could check out The Elements of Magic, which is a very popular alternative magic system these days. I haven't read it myself, but the basic premise is promising.
 

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Bonedagger

First Post
Randolpho said:


Heh... understandable. Which is, of course, *why* I suggested 3e Psionics. Because it fits right into the core rules with no ripples. Whatsoever. (IMO) I suggest you pick the book up, or read a friend's copy.



Well, there is that. Psionics still has a somewhat scientific feel to it. However, that doesn't *have* to be the case. All you need to do is adopt the *rules* system for casting spells from psionics and allow spells from the normal Wizard/Sorcerer lists rather than the Psionics list. It would be almost totally seamless. Plus, you could look into the psionic items the PsiHB offers and transform them from the new-age-ish crystaline crap to something a bit more... mystical. Things like crystal capacitors, mindfeeder weapons, psionic tatoos, etc.

Or, if you just want something that's different from the current magic system, but don't want pseudo-scientific sounding names (blame scientists for that) then just use Psionics rules unmodified and change the names for things to fit your campaign better. Call psionicists things like Mentalists, or Mystics, or the like.

Regardless, I suggest you start with the 3e Psi HB and mine it for ideas.

Or you could check out The Elements of Magic, which is a very popular alternative magic system these days. I haven't read it myself, but the basic premise is promising.

I have heard that EoM should be similar to the system that was used in the experimental version of Dragon Lance. Sounds interesting.

I actually don't mind that wizards might appear like a scientist. It was the part about that in the spellslot system magic wasn't something you had. It was just something you wore. (I'm already talking about it in the past. :))

I will probably take a look at the psionic rules at some time. It's just one of those things I haven't gotten around to.


But right now I'm serious considdering making this my permanent system. It gets better every time I look at it.

---------------------------------


Additions to the rules (Sort of) [Added above]:

Table C / The wizards progression:

Level / Basic Mana (Specialty bonus) / Max spell level

1st / 7 (4) / 1st
2nd / 12 (4) / 1st
3rd / 19 (11) / 2nd
4th / 30 (11) / 2nd
5th / 41 (22) / 3rd
6th / 59 (22) / 3rd
7th / 79 (38) / 4th
8th / 106 (38) / 4th
9th / 135 (60) / 5th
10th / 173 (60) / 5th
11th / 213 (89) / 6th
12th / 264 (89) / 6th
13th / 317 (126) / 7th
14th / 383 (126) / 7th
15th / 451 (172) / 8th
16th / 534 (172) / 8th
17th / 619 (228) / 9th
18th / 721 (228) / 9th
19th / 814 (228) / 9th
20th / 916 (228) / 9th

Note: Specialty bonus points can only be used for the specialists chosen school of specialization. (I know. But it had to be mentioned)


New magical items:

Source Items. Source items are items that you can draw mana points from that can only be used to power a special school, or type, of spells. They can go a long way for setting the flavor of the campaign.

Eksamples:

-Staffs of Flames (School fire / +12 mana per day).

-The Jesters Coin (School Illusion / + 4 mana per round or - 4 mana per round. You need to flip the coin before you can draw from it (Standard action). It is fifty-fifty what effect you will get. But you will know since the face on the coin will reflect it. Smiling (Good) or evil grin (Bad). The coins effect is stuck on you for the rest of that encounter no matter if you lose the coin)


The secrets needed for making source items have been lost to time. So have many of the Source Items. Therefore they are considdered prestige items and have no set price.


---

Clerical Spontanious Casting (Being able to transform magic into healing or destruction) is gone.
 
Last edited:

Randolpho

First Post
How about I boil down the Psion class into a Wizard / Cleric class from the rules on in the SRD. I made some minor changes to reflect the flavor of the Wizard and Cleric classes, as well as for wizard specialization. Also, due to poorly thought out coloration on ENWorld, you might need to hilite the tables, which I'm wrapping in code tags to preserve formatting.

Code:
[COLOR=white] 	Base
	Attack		Fort	Ref	Will			
Level	Bonus		Save	Save	Save	Special	  
-----	------		----	----	----	-------
1	+0		+0	+0	+2	(as Wizard or Cleric)
2	+1		+0	+0	+3		
3	+1		+1	+1	+3		  
4	+2		+1	+1	+4		  
5	+2		+1	+1	+4		  
6	+3		+2	+2	+5		  
7	+3		+2	+2	+5		  
8	+4		+2	+2	+6		  
9	+4		+3	+3	+6		
10	+5		+3	+3	+7		
11	+5		+3	+3	+7		
12	+6/+1		+4	+4	+8		
13	+6/+1		+4	+4	+8		
14	+7/+2		+4	+4	+9		
15	+7/+2		+5	+5	+9		
16	+8/+3		+5	+5	+10		
17	+8/+3		+5	+5	+10		
18	+9/+4		+6	+6	+11		
19	+9/+4		+6	+6	+11		
20	+10/+5		+6	+6	+12[/color]

Code:
[COLOR=white]Spell					------- Maximum Spells Known -------
Level	Pts/Day		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
-----	-------		-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
1	2		2+d	d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	3		2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	4		2+d	2+d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	7		3+d	2+d	d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	10		3+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	15		4+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-	-	-	-	-
7	20		4+d	3+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-	-	-
8	27		5+d	3+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-	-	-	-
9	34		5+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-	-
10	43		6+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-	-	-
11	52		6+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-
12	63		7+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-	-
13	74		7+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-
14	87		7+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-
15	100		7+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-	-
16	115		7+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d	-
17	130		7+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-
18	147		7+d	4+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d
19	164		7+d	4+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	1+d	1+d
20	183		7+d	4+d	4+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d
Spell (or Channeling) Points/Day: How many points theWizard/Cleric has access to each day. The Wizard/Cleric
possesses a maximum number of points equal to the given number of points per day plus any bonus points per day.

“d”: Two extra spells from the Wizard's (only) specialization school. Non-specialized Wizards and Clerics gain only
one spell of any school. Note: This is a slight modification of the Psi rules to account for general practitioner Wizards
and Clerics. I don't feel it overly affects balance.[/color]

Code:
[COLOR=white]Table: Wizard/Cleric Bonus Spell Points
Int/Wis 
Ability			--------- Bonus Spell Points (by Wizard/Cleric Level) ---------
Score		1-2	3-4	5-6	7-8	9-10	11-12	13-14	15-16	17-18	19-20
-------		---	---	---	---	----	-----	-----	-----	-----	-----
  1-9			------ Can’t can't cast spells if Int/Wis this low ------
10-11		-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
12-13		1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
14-15		1	3	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
16-17		1	3	5	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
18-19		1	3	5	7	-	-	-	-	-	-
20-21		3	3	5	7	9	-	-	-	-	-
22-23		3	5	5	7	9	11	-	-	-	-
24-25		3	5	7	7	9	11	13	-	-	-
26-27		3	5	7	9	9	11	13	15	-	-
28-29		5	5	7	9	11	11	13	15	17	-
30-31		5	7	7	9	11	13	13	15	17	19
32-33		5	7	9	9	11	13	15	15	17	19
34-35		5	7	9	11	11	13	15	17	17	19
36-37		7	7	9	11	13	13	15	17	19	19
38-39		7	9	9	11	13	15	15	17	19	21
40-41		7	9	11	11	13	15	17	17	19	21
etc. . . .[/color]

Code:
[COLOR=white]---Spell Cost---
Level	Cost
-----	----
0	0/1
1	1
2	3
3	5
4	7
5	9
6	11
7	13
8	15
9	17[/color]

Class Features

Spells: A Wizard or Cleric begins play knowing two 0-level spells (also called cantrips or orisons) and zero 1st-level powers, plus two extra spells in the Specialist Wizard's school or a single spell of any class for generic Wizards and Clerics. At each level, your Wizard or Cleric discovers one or more spells, as indicated on the tables above. Wizards and Clerics can pick powers from any school, but the “d” in each column represents two extra spells learned from the Specialist Wizard's primary school (or a single free spell for generic Wizards and Clerics). A “-” indicates no extra spells are known; a “d” or a number indicates that the Wizard/Cleric can choose one or more spells at the given level.

Spells learned must be common powers chosen from the Wizard/Cleric spell list. Specialist Wizards may not learn spells from their opposing schools. New spells researched but not on the list do not count toward maximum spells known; there is no limit on the total researched spells known except that Specialist Wizards may not research spells in their opposing schools.

Certain spells can be enhanced as they are cast, at the cost of additional spell points. (See Metamagic feats section)

Note: A Wizard/Cleric may choose to discover a lower-level spell in place of a higher-level spell normally granted by level advancement.

Spell Points: A Wizard/Cleric can cast a certain number of 1st-level and higher spells per day based on his available spell points. The number of available spell points per day is improved by his bonus spell points, if any.

0-Level Spells: Also called cantrips or orisons, 0-level spells have a special spell point cost. A Wizard/Cleric can manifest any cantrip or orison he knows for free a number of times per day equal to his level +3. After exhausting his daily allotment, the Wizard/Cleric must pay 1 power point per casting of a 0-level spell for the rest of the day.

Regaining Spell/Channeling points: A Wizard/Cleric regains all spell or channeling points after 8 hours of rest followed by 1 hour of study / meditation. If this is interrupted or circumstantially impossible, current spell points are retained, but no new spell points are regained.

Feats (Taken without modifications; replace the word "power" with the word "spell" and replace "manifest/manifesting" with "cast/casting". Replace "dorje" with "wand")

Delay Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: A delayed power doesn’t activate until 1 to 5 rounds after you finish manifesting it. You determine the delay when manifesting the power, and it cannot be changed once set. The power activates just before your turn on the round you designate. Only area, personal, and touch powers may be affected by this feat. Any decisions you would make about the power (including attack rolls, designating targets, or determining or shaping an area) are decided when the power is manifested, while any effects resolved by those affected by the power (including saving throws) are decided when the power triggers. A delayed power may be negated normally during the delay, and can be detected normally in the area or on the target with powers that can detect psionic effects. A delayed power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +6.

Enlarge Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: An enlarged power has its range doubled. Powers whose ranges are not defined by distance do not have their ranges increased. Determine an enlarged power’s area or effect as if you were two manifester levels higher than you actually are. An enlarged power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +2.

Extend Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: An extended power lasts twice as long as normal. Powers with a concentration, instantaneous, or permanent duration are not extended. An extended power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +2.

Heighten Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: A heightened power has a higher psionic power level than normal (up to 9th level). Unlike other meta_psionic feats, Heighten Power actually increases the effective level of the power that it modifies. All effects dependent on power level are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened power costs as many power points as a power of its effective level.

Hide Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: A psionic power can be manifested without one associated display characteristic chosen by you when you take the feat: auditory, material, mental, olfactory, or visual. The hidden power costs a number of power points equal to the standard cost +2.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times, each time choosing a different display characteristic to hide while manifesting a given power.

Master Dorje [Metamagic]

Benefit: You can manifest a power stored in a dorje without expending a charge. Instead, you pay for the imbedded power from your own power point reserve by spending a number of power points equal to its standard cost +2. When all the charges of a dorje are exhausted, the dorje becomes inert; thus, this feat no longer affects that individual dorje.

Maximize Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a maximized power are maximized. A maximized power deals maximum damage, cures the maximum number of hit points, affects the maximum number of targets, and so on, as appropriate. For example, a maximized whitefire deals 20 points of damage. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you manifest negate psionics) are not affected. Powers without random variables are not affected. The maximized power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +6.

Persistent Power [Metamagic]

Prerequisite: Extend Power.

Benefit: A persistent power has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent power must have a personal range or a fixed range; you can’t use this feat on a power with a variable range, or on a power with an instantaneous duration. Note that you must concentrate on some powers to use their effects (for example, detect psionics and detect thoughts); concentration on such a power is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +8.

Quicken Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: Manifesting a quickened power is a free action. You may only manifest one quickened power per round. A power whose time to manifest is more than 1 full round cannot be quickened. The quickened power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +8.

Special: Possession of the Power Touch feat allows the use of that feat and one quickened power in the same round.

Twin Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: Manifesting a power altered by this feat causes the power to take effect twice on the target, as if you were simultaneously manifesting the same power two times on the same location or target. Any variables in the power (such as targets, shaping an area, and so on) apply to both of the resulting powers. The target suffers all the effects of both powers individually and receives a saving throw for each. In some cases, failure of both of the target’s saving throws results in redundant effects. A twinned power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +8.
 
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Randolpho

First Post
I suppose I should have mentioned that Clerical Specialty spells do not count towards the maximum spells known on the spells known table. Clerical Spontaneous healing is, naturally, redundant.

Note the differences in the systems: The spell costs have changed. This was carefully playtested in Psionics playtesting and, I think, is a good progression.

Also note that specialization does not grant you additional spell points, but additional spells known. This is a balance issue -- those additional spell points, while meager at lower levels, tip the scales overwhelmingly in favor of specialization against generalization at higher levels.

There are things I left out, like cool psionic items and feats that would compliment the magic system nicely... if you're intrigued by my post, feel free to look at the Psi stuff on http://opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html.
 
Last edited:

Kyramus

First Post
check out Everquest d20. the magic system is mana based and is pretty well thought out.

only difference is that the classes in everquest are default 30 levels.

but you'll get an idea if you look at it.
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Randolpho said:
Note the differences in the systems: The spell costs have changed. This was carefully playtested in Psionics playtesting and, I think, is a good progression.


But that doesn't address the problem that the psionic powers may be weaker, stronger or more flexible than their arcane/divine counterparts.

I made a few observations skimming the Openforum dokument you provided a link to. (Thanks for the link BTW)

- 2nd level: Clairvoyance, Suggestion

- 3rd level: Mindlink, Charm Monster

- 4th level: Telekinesis, (Armor) +4 AC

I am aware that this will probably be limited through the choise of class or otherwise but it still raises questions when drawing parallels.


Also note that specialization does not grant you additional spell points, but additional spells known. This is a balance issue -- those additional spell points, while meager at lower levels, tip the scales overwhelmingly in favor of specialization against generalization at higher levels.


I felt the same way when I first looked at it. But the lack of one or more schools can often be a hard blow when reallity (In-game that is) strikes the wizard....

...Then again. It does allow for 4 extra 9th level spells at 17th level and up. The speciality mana bonus could probably be reduced. But it was also the point that the limited spellselection should balance this. Never said my system was complete. :)

The option of increasing the spellpool instead of the mana pool does sound like it has potential. But I think I will divide the bonus pool by 2 rounding down for now. I will have to look into the psionic rules first to see what they gain from their limited spellchoise.


There are things I left out, like cool psionic items and feats that would compliment the magic system nicely... if you're intrigued by my post, feel free to look at the Psi stuff on http://opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html.


If nothing else it is inspiration.

Even though it started as a sidenote I have become hooked on completing this system... A little at the time. :)
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Kyramus said:
check out Everquest d20. the magic system is mana based and is pretty well thought out.

only difference is that the classes in everquest are default 30 levels.

but you'll get an idea if you look at it.


Hmm... I didn't know there was a d20 version of Everquest. Thanks for the hint.
 


Randolpho

First Post
Bonedagger said:
But that doesn't address the problem that the psionic powers may be weaker, stronger or more flexible than their arcane/divine counterparts.

Ah, but it does! Psionics powers *are* weaker than spells in general per level, but that is because the point-cast system is more flexible. It's a bance-issue tradeoff. However, since you're pretty much unbalancing the spell-casting classes by going to a mana-point system, I don't think it matters. The power-points granted to a psionicst allow him to cast (manifest, sorry ;)) as many spells (powers) as a wizard can.

(Thanks for the link BTW)
Anytime.

I felt the same way when I first looked at it. But the lack of one or more schools can often be a hard blow when reallity (In-game that is) strikes the wizard....

Indeed, that's a drawback. In the new system, Wizards are limited in the number of spells they can know. Specialists are also limited; they can know less *types* of spells, but (barring research) they can know *more* spells. This makes a specialist both more flexible and less flexible at the same time. Balance! :)

...Then again. It does allow for 4 extra 9th level spells at 17th level and up. The speciality mana bonus could probably be reduced. But it was also the point that the limited spellselection should balance this. Never said my system was complete. :)

I say eliminate extra spells cast and instead offer extra spells known. This increases flexibility without overpowering.

Even though it started as a sidenote I have become hooked on completing this system... A little at the time. :)

I'd like to see it a finished product. I suggested psionics because I enjoy the rules for playing a psionicst; they sort of flow well. Furthermore they've been playtesting balanced. A wizard based on those rules would a fun play, IMO.
 

Randolpho

First Post
BTW, I hope you don't think I'm being overly-critical. I rather like the idea of separating spell points into two (or even three!) separate pools based on the type of magic being used. This helps solve multi-classing issues. But what about multi-classing between two spell-casters of the same type (like Duirds and Clerics or Bards and Wizards)? In the PsiHB, it is recommended that the power points be pooled, but that which spells are known be tracked according to which class they are known by, as there are level-dependent effects in the individual spells.

I suggest you keep that suggestion as well and make all the spell-casting classes follow the same basic rules. So a level 1/3 Wizard/Bard might have (using my suggested psi-like spell points) 3 Mana points (2 from 1st level Wizard and an extrapolated 1 from 2nd level Bard) + stat bonuses (Int and Cha), and know 3 0-level Wizard spells, 4 0-level Bard spells, 1 1st-level Wizard spell, and 2 1st-level Bard spells.

Hmm... if you don't end up using the Psi-rules as I suggested I just may have to make a competing system. :)
 

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