Marionnen's Musings: Prestige Classes as Feats

[airwalkrr]

Edit: I have changed the title to reflect that this thread will be an ongoing series as new articles are written.

In the latest Marionnen's Musings, I explore the concept of Prestige Classes as feats with a look at the Arcane Archer. (Reposted below for easy reading but without formatting.)

Today I look at an idea which is not entirely novel, but has interested me nonetheless. To begin with, I have never really liked prestige classes in D&D 3.5 the way they were originally designed. I love the concept, but the implementation was, I feel, a disaster. The first problem is one which I have with multiclassing in general. It's just too good not to multiclass for most characters. Whether that means splashing a couple levels of fighter as a rogue or taking a powerful prestige class as a wizard, the benefits usually far outweigh the costs in terms of prerequisites and other things. The second problem is that prestige classes are, in general, inherently too good to ignore. A character who plays from level 1 to 20 as a single base class is generally going to be at a disadvantage by most metrics to a character who takes even a single prestige class. I have a few other minor gripes with prestige classes, but these two are the main ones. So I got to thinking about prestige classes in a recent EN World discussion which was focused on another topic, but sparked my interest in this idea. Someone posted what was essentially a conversion of the arcane archer prestige class into feats. I got to thinking, what if all prestige classes were that way?

I came up with a relatively simple notion. Convert all prestige classes into feat trees consisting of five feats each. Given that prestige classes generally become available at 6th-level, these feat trees would all have a minimum level requirement of 6th-level. From 6th-level all the way to 18th-level a character receives five feats. So through this conversion, a character who wants to be a consummate expert at the prestige class abilities would need to devote all feats from 6th-level onward to the prestige feat tree. But this would not preclude the character from dabbling in the prestige class by taking only one or two of these feats.

Prestige feats are a new type of feat which function as feat trees that grant a character successive abilities which become increasingly more powerful as one advances. Prestige feats generally have the same entry requirements as the prestige class upon which it is based. They also typically combine elements from one or more prestige class levels into each feat. The benefit granted by a base prestige feat is generally enhanced by each successive prestige feat in that chain. Below is an example of the Arcane Archer prestige feat chain.

ARCANE ARCHER (PRESTIGE)
Prerequisites: Elf or half-elf, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow), ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: Every nonmagical arrow you nock and let fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, you need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, your magic arrows only function for you.
Additionally, you gain the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows you to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.
Special: For each feat you possess which has Arcane Archer as a prerequisite, the magic arrows you create gain +1 greater potency.

SEEKER ARROW (PRESTIGE)
Prerequisites: Elf or half-elf, Arcane Archer, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).
Benefit: You can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to you within range, and the arrow travels to the target, even around corners. Only an unavoidable obstacle or the limit of the arrow’s range prevents the arrow’s flight. This ability negates cover and concealment modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).
Special: For each feat you possess which has Seeker Arrow as a prerequisite, you gain one additional use of this feat per day.

PHASE ARROW (PRESTIGE)
Prerequisites: Elf or half-elf, Arcane Archer, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Seeker Arrow, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).
Benefit: You can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to you within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally.
Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).
Special: For each feat you possess which has Phase Arrow as a prerequisite, you gain one additional use of this feat per day.

HAIL OF ARROWS (PRESTIGE)
Prerequisites: Elf or half-elf, Arcane Archer, Phase Arrow, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Seeker Arrow, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).
Benefit: In lieu of your regular attacks, once per day you can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of two targets for every Arcane Archer feat you possess. Each attack uses your primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.
Special: For each feat you possess which has Hail of Arrows as a prerequisite, you gain one additional use of this feat per day.

ARROW OF DEATH (PRESTIGE)
Prerequisites: Elf or half-elf, Arcane Archer, Hail of Arrows, Phase Arrow, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Seeker Arrow, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).
Benefits: You can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + your Dex modifier) or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for you. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and you can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.
Special: For each feat you possess which has Arrow of Death as a prerequisite, you may have one additional arrow of death at a time.

Note that I have left the door open for further expansion of this feat chain. If a character wishes to continue taking Arcane Archer feats into epic levels, you could extrapolate to create greater effects, as well as granting more uses of the previous Arcane Archer feats and a greater enhancement bonus to arrows. These feats end up being a little more powerful than the arcane archer prestige class itself, but the cost is that you are giving up the flexibility of taking other feats and you do not gain some of the other benefits of the arcane archer prestige class, such as skills, saving throws and so on.

Arcane Trickster

 

[doghead]

As mentioned before, I like the idea of PrC's as feat chains.

A couple of thoughts in no particular order.

1. I would like to see the Arcane Archer Prerequisites incorporate the Ranger Archery Combat style feats - Rapid Shot and Many-shot. Perhaps something like "any two of Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid shot or Many-Shot".

2. Is it necessary to repeat all of the Prerequisites for each feat. If Arcane Archer is a Prerequisite for Seeker Arrow, then by definition, all of the Arcane Archer prerequisites have been met. So the prerequisites could be simplified to:

Arcane Archer: Elf or half-elf, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow), ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells, base attack bonus +5.

Seeker Arrow: Arcane Archer

Phase Arrow: Seeker Arrow

etc,​

3. The Hail of Arrows feat only allows a maximum of 2 targets given that there are only 5 Arcane Archer feats. The original allows up to 10 targets given the 10 possible Arcane Archer levels, with the starting number of targets being 8. Give Hail of Arrows is the fourth feat in the chain, perhaps two targets per Arcane Archer feat is what you meant?

4. The Elf or Half-Elf prerequisite seems to put the feat chain more in line with the Racial progression concept that you were discussing in the other thread. That been said, it is mostly just a terminology thing.

thotd

 

[airwalkrr]

As mentioned before, I like the idea of PrC's as feat chains.

A couple of thoughts in no particular order.

1. I would like to see the Arcane Archer Prerequisites incorporate the Ranger Archery Combat style feats - Rapid Shot and Many-shot. Perhaps something like "any two of Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid shot or Many-Shot".

This might actually be a better way to balance the feats, as the prereqs for the Arcane Archer prestige class are already steep and may not need to be (although with the exceptional power of archer builds I have seen in high-level play, I can see at least see some rationale for it). The main reason I did it this way was because I was going for a quite straight conversion of the mechanics from the prestige class to feats. I bent the rules a little bit in some cases, but only where I deemed it necessary. If I were to go back and try to balance this after I have done some of the other feats, I may indeed loosen the prerequisites.

2. Is it necessary to repeat all of the Prerequisites for each feat. If Arcane Archer is a Prerequisite for Seeker Arrow, then by definition, all of the Arcane Archer prerequisites have been met. So the prerequisites could be simplified to:

Arcane Archer: Elf or half-elf, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow), ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells, base attack bonus +5.

Seeker Arrow: Arcane Archer

Phase Arrow: Seeker Arrow

etc,​

It is simply to keep the feat in line with 3.5 conventions. If these feats were to be included in an alphabetical list (which is not always the best way to list feats but is the way it is usually done in 3.5), then someone reading through them might want to know what all the prerequisites are when stumbling upon a feat of interest, at least that is what I believe the convention is for.

3. The Hail of Arrows feat only allows a maximum of 2 targets given that there are only 5 Arcane Archer feats. The original allows up to 10 targets given the 10 possible Arcane Archer levels, with the starting number of targets being 8. Give Hail of Arrows is the fourth feat in the chain, perhaps two targets per Arcane Archer feat is what you meant?

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. It shall be corrected.

4. The Elf or Half-Elf prerequisite seems to put the feat chain more in line with the Racial progression concept that you were discussing in the other thread. That been said, it is mostly just a terminology thing.

thotd

The path of the arcane archer is an elven tradition in 3e. I didn't intend for this to be a racial progression, although the idea was inspired by that thread. It just so happened to be the first prestige class listed alphabetically in the DMG.

 

[airwalkrr]

And next, presenting the Arcane Trickster!

The arcane trickster is a prestige class which I always found to be a little mundane. It only grants two abilities that are interesting, ranged legerdemain and impromptu sneak attack. But it does let you progress with sneak attack and continue to improve many skills available almost exclusively to rogues, making for a fairly effective rogue/wizard build. The following prestige feats assume the character wants to continue leveling as a wizard (or sorcerer) to gain caster levels but continue to improve rogue skills at the same time. As I did with the arcane archer, the feats are also available starting at 6th-level and continue as a five feat progression. Because of this I had to relax the prerequisites a bit so that a rogue 3/wizard 3 would be able to take the first feat in the chain. Since a character wanting to utilize these feats is likely to lack the skill points necessary to keep rogue skills modestly high, I threw in some skill bonuses as well. If a character keeps the skill ranks at the minimum levels required, those skills at least (Decipher Script, Disable Device, and Escape Artist) will continue to be just as good as if the character had maximum ranks. Of course there is nothing keeping the character from having even more ranks than the bare minimum if he has the skill points to spare, so that may open the door for an interesting niche which is highly specialized in some skills.

The higher tier feats might not look all that appealing, but when looking at them, try to bear in mind that they grant extra benefits in addition to their listed benefits by virtue of requiring Arcane Trickster as a prerequisite, namely the extra sneak attack and skill bonuses.

ARCANE TRICKSTER [PRESTIGE]
Prerequisites: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd-level or higher, sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: You gain the ability of ranged legerdemain once per day. You may use this to perform one of the following class skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and you cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less.
You also gain +1d6 sneak attack and +2 to Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Open Lock, Search, and Sleight of Hand.
Special: For each feat you possess which has Arcane Trickster as a prerequisite, you gain +1d6 sneak attack and +2 to Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Open Lock, Search, and Sleight of Hand.

IMPROMPTU SNEAK ATTACK [PRESTIGE]
Prerequisites: Decipher Script 8 ranks, Disable Device 8 ranks, Escape Artist 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Arcane Trickster, ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd-level or higher, sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: Once per day you can declare one melee or ranged attack you make to be a sneak attack (the target can be no more than 30 feet distant if the impromptu sneak attack is a ranged attack). The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against that attack. The power can be used against any target, but creatures that are not subject to critical hits take no extra damage (though they still lose any Dexterity bonus to AC against the attack).
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times.

IMPROVED RANGED LEGERDEMAIN [PRESTIGE]
Prerequisites: Decipher Script 9 ranks, Disable Device 9 ranks, Escape Artist 9 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Arcane Trickster, Impromptu Sneak Attack, ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 5rd-level or higher, sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: You gain one additional use of ranged legerdemain per day. You may also now take 10 on this check.

GREATER RANGED LEGERDEMAIN [PRESTIGE]
Prerequisites: Decipher Script 11 ranks, Disable Device 11 ranks, Escape Artist 11 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Arcane Trickster, Impromptu Sneak Attack, Improved Ranged Legerdemain, ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 8th-level or higher, sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: You gain one additional use of ranged legerdemain per day. Your ranged legerdemain also no longer increases your increases the DC by 5.

 

[Celebrim]

I like where you are going with this (because I'm already there), but I'm going to suggest a completely different mechanic in some cases.

As I see it 'Seeker Arrow', 'Phase Arrow', 'Hail of Arrows', and 'Arrow of Death' are spells not feats (1st, 2nd, 4th, and 6th level respectively). You simply add them to your Sorcerer/Wizard spell list and give them the unique 'Arrow' descriptor. What is the point of this? Now we no longer have to spend precious feat resources to do a bit of magic. We also no longer have to specify how many times you can do these things a day nor add complex feat interdependencies, and we free the player from the need to climb up a particular feat chain. He can instead focus on those abilities he wants and ignore those he doesn't want.

This leads us to the following feats that capture the feel of the original class:

Master of Arrow Magic [GENERAL, WIZARD]
Prerequisites: Elf or half-elf, Arcane Archer, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (any bow), ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells, base attack bonus +5, able to cast one or more spells with the 'Arrow' descriptor.
Benefits: You may spontaneously channel a spell of the same or higher level into any spell with the Arrow descriptor which you know, even if you have not prepared such a spell ahead of time.

And

Bow Magic [GENERAL, WIZARD]
Prerequisites: Elf or half-elf, Arcane Archer, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (any bow), ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells, base attack bonus +5, able to cast one or more spells with the 'Arrow' descriptor.
Benefit: Twice per day, you may cast a spell with the 'Arrow' descriptor without expending a spell slot.
Special: You may take Bow Magic more than once. Its effects stack.

And

Arcane Arrows [GENERAL, WIZARD]
Prerequisites: Elf or half-elf, Arcane Archer, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (any bow), ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, base attack bonus +5, able to cast one or more spells with the 'Arrow' descriptor, able to cast Greater Magic Weapon
Benefit: Every arrow which you fire from a bow for which you have the weapon forcus feat recieves an enhancement bonus, just as if you had cast Greater Magic Weapon on it. This effect lasts only for the duration of the arrows flight and is not transferable.

One thing to notice though is that I've changed the focus here from something a fighter does to pick up a few spell-like abilities, to something that a wizard does to operate like a fighter. If you really want to keep that focus on the Arcane Archer as fighter, your methodology might work well, but I don't feel it is as flavorful (after all, the core power of the class and its essential flavor is that you can enchant your arrows to deliver spells) and I think that there might be better and more general approaches. For example, I already have a homebrew feat called 'The Riddle of Steel' that causes _any_ weapon a fighter wields to become magical in his hands.

I could go on, but I'm at work and don't have time to really dig into how I'd rearchitect everything. There is nothing wrong with your methodology, and if you prefer it, then great, but keep in mind how precious feats are.

As for Arcane Trickster, just to start the discussion, who says that you need a feat to let Mage Hand do ranged legerdemain? Why not write it into the spell and let anyone do that with a -5 on his skill check, and have a Feat that removes the penalty?

 

[airwalkrr]

On both the arcane archer and arcane trickster front, I don't like introducing new spells into the game, period. In vanilla 3e, the wizard, cleric, druid, and sorcerer are already the most powerful types of characters in existence. Giving them more ammunition in the form of spells is entirely unnecessary in my humble opinion.

I am aware of the precious nature of feats, but that is part of the trade-off. If you wish to fully dedicate yourself to a prestige feat path, you have to essentially promise yourself to a specific set of feats from level 6 to 18. You lose the flexibility of being able to take feats that might make your character more versatile, but in exchange you receive feats that allow you to specialize in something to a greater degree than a single feat might. The sum of the feats are more valuable than their parts in other words.

For the arcane trickster, I realized ranged legerdemain is not really that great as a feat in and of itself, which is why I tied it to a host of other abilities. Ranged legerdemain in the prestige class essentially is the mage hand spell already but with a special ability that lets you use it to do other things. So because we are enhancing the functionality of a spell, we don't necessarily need a "greater" version of the spell. Even impromptu sneak attack in and of itself probably isn't worth a feat, so I tied it into a host of other abilities. But bear in mind that these feats are not just giving you ranged legerdemain or impromptu sneak attack. They are also giving you +2 to six different skills and +1d6 sneak attack. That alone is likely worth a feat itself if those skills are something you want to focus on.

The interesting thing is that if you look at a rogue 3/wizard 7/arcane trickster 10 versus a rogue 3/wizard 17 with the arcane trickster feats, they look nearly the same. The character with the prestige class might look a little better (slightly better saves and skill points and a couple extra feats (bear in mind the arcane trickster is losing 3 wizard bonus feats), but this is more a function of the problem with prestige classes in the first place, that they are inherently better than base classes and hence necessitate taking one or more to be competitive. And I did add a couple small benefits to the arcane trickster prestige feats that are not in the original prestige class to help make up the difference anyway.

If you like the solution of adding more spells to the game, then I guess that is for you. I have never found the approach palatable. As time went on in 3e we got more and more spells that let casters do all the things that other classes could do, only better. I think there are enough spells in the Spell Compendium alone for this approach if you desire it. But I prefer smaller spell lists as they make casters less unpredictable and thus makes the game easier to DM.

 

[Celebrim]

On both the arcane archer and arcane trickster front, I don't like introducing new spells into the game, period. In vanilla 3e, the wizard, cleric, druid, and sorcerer are already the most powerful types of characters in existence. Giving them more ammunition in the form of spells is entirely unnecessary in my humble opinion.

It depends entirely on the spells. In general, spells that are equivalent of attacks are the least powerful thing you can give a spell caster - particularly they require buffing up to make them viable. The spells would really only be viable for what they are intended for - multiclassed caster/archers. A spellcaster that functions mostly like a martial class but with a limited number of stunts per day isn't a problem. The problem spells are the game breakers - broadly useful spells that dominate the action economy, lack any counter but other magic, and let you overcome intractable problems with ease. Seriously, 3.5 RAW web, invisibility, alter self and glitterdust are all more problimatic than any of the suggested spells.

I think there are enough spells in the Spell Compendium alone for this approach if you desire it.

There pretty much no spells that aren't either carefully thought out homebrew or RAW in my game. Indeed, the spells in my game on the whole are weaker than the core spells. I think I can recognize a problem spell when I see one.