D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Remathilis]

And yet a dragonborn fighter is expected to be no more capable than a 'mundane' earth human, even at max level, because the fighter is 'mundane'.

My point is that this standard of 'mundanity' is at odds with even the most baseline assumptions of most D&D worlds. We are already applying it unnecessarily.

The dragonborn fighter is more capable than a mundane earth human. He breathes fire, has resistance to it, and can even manifest wings from it. They are gifts from his ORIGIN, which is dragonborn, not his class.

So I'll turn the question back: how does the fighter class justify the ability to breathe fire, resist fire attacks and manifest wings? The dragonborn does it because he was made by Bahamut's blood and carries both a bit of divinity and draconic power in his lineage. Explain why fighters would get the same.

Because I am ALL ABOUT a dragonknight that has been touched by draconic power and can do all those things and more. That's hella cool. I'm not about Bob the farm boy turned soldier getting them because he killed enough goblins.

 

[SteveC]

Or, in other words, ruining casters at every possible opportunity is preferable than giving some buffs to martials.

I see this quite often. The solution to one type of character not having fun is to make sure that others don't either? Especially by adding homebrew elements to the game. Somehow negative and destructive homebrew works better than buffs?

This ... sounds like a game I'm really not interested in.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The dragonborn fighter is more capable than a mundane earth human. He breathes fire, has resistance to it, and can even manifest wings from it. They are gifts from his ORIGIN, which is dragonborn, not his class.

So I'll turn the question back: how does the fighter class justify the ability to breathe fire, resist fire attacks and manifest wings? The dragonborn does it because he was made by Bahamut's blood and carries both a bit of divinity and draconic power in his lineage. Explain why fighters would get the same.

Because I am ALL ABOUT a dragonknight that has been touched by draconic power and can do all those things and more. That's hella cool. I'm not about Bob the farm boy turned soldier getting them because he killed enough goblins.

i think their point might have been something more like 'when all the other species in DnD are so much more fantastical than humans why are their fighters being limited from the fighter class design being restrained to 'human guy at the gym' levels of capability'

just let the human fighter like up to the fantasy, let them do incredible things through mundane methods without needing some contrived excuse to justify why it can happen, like, you don't watch james bond fight off 15 guys and say 'that's not realistic one guy isn't capable of fighting all of them at once he should've gotten dogpiled'

 

[Gammadoodler]

The dragonborn fighter is more capable than a mundane earth human. He breathes fire, has resistance to it, and can even manifest wings from it. They are gifts from his ORIGIN, which is dragonborn, not his class.

So I'll turn the question back: how does the fighter class justify the ability to breathe fire, resist fire attacks and manifest wings? The dragonborn does it because he was made by Bahamut's blood and carries both a bit of divinity and draconic power in his lineage. Explain why fighters would get the same.

Because I am ALL ABOUT a dragonknight that has been touched by draconic power and can do all those things and more. That's hella cool. I'm not about Bob the farm boy turned soldier getting them because he killed enough goblins.

Except that Bob the farm boy can be a dragonborn or elf or gnome. So the baseline expectation is "more than earth human" at level zero.

So we have this menagerie of mostly fantastical races who can do things like breathe fire, turn invisible and manifest wings, but if they strap on a sword and shield..we need them to clear a whole secondary hurdle to do fantastical things while wearing that sword and shield.

The "earth human" standard people use as a yardstick for the capabilities of "D&D fighters" is entirely arbitrary and broadly inappropriate since few of these fighters are even human at all, much less "earth human".

We should stop using earth human as a standard for fantasy rpg characters capabilities in D&D. It's nonsense.

 

[TwoSix]

Because I am ALL ABOUT a dragonknight that has been touched by draconic power and can do all those things and more. That's hella cool. I'm not about Bob the farm boy turned soldier getting them because he killed enough goblins.

And that makes sense. But if I'm reading you correctly, I think your assertion, and where there might be a division of opinion on this thread, is that the narrative for these changes should be contained within the class description itself, and that post-hoc rationalization shouldn't have to be necessary.

Or to slightly summarize, the mechanics of class progression should always contain their own cohesive narrative.

 

[Remathilis]

And that makes sense. But if I'm reading you correctly, I think your assertion, and where there might be a division of opinion on this thread, is that the narrative for these changes should be contained within the class description itself, and that post-hoc rationalization shouldn't have to be necessary.

Or to slightly summarize, the mechanics of class progression should always contain their own cohesive narrative.

Yes. That is correct.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Except that Bob the farm boy can be a dragonborn or elf or gnome. So the baseline expectation is "more than earth human" at level zero.

So we have this menagerie of mostly fantastical races who can do things like breathe fire, turn invisible and manifest wings, but if they strap on a sword and shield..we need them to clear a whole secondary hurdle to do fantastical things while wearing that sword and shield.

The "earth human" standard people use as a yardstick for the capabilities of "D&D fighters" is entirely arbitrary and broadly inappropriate since few of these fighters are even human at all, much less "earth human".

We should stop using earth human as a standard for fantasy rpg characters capabilities in D&D. It's nonsense.

You can stop. You just have to very clear about the revised baseline assumptions in the text, as I said above. And the current books aren't, and making those changes will result in some degree of pushback that will have to be endured.

 

[Gammadoodler]

You can stop. You just have to very clear about the revised baseline assumptions in the text, as I said above. And the current books aren't, and making those changes will result in some degree of pushback that will have to be endured.

I'm not sure what you are replying to or which of your posts you are referring to (I don't see anything with your name on it on the same page. How far 'above' should be looking?)

The new book could be clearer about baseline assumptions, but it's not like anyone who is reading the current books could be mistaking these settings as historical reenactments.

I do not expect that someone picking up a D&D rulebook should need a reminder that it's a fantasy rpg and the stuff that happens in-game will likely differ from real world experience.

Insofar as a 'revision' to the baseline occurs, it will be a fix to a problem that shouldn't have existed.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm not sure what you are replying to or which of your posts you are referring to (I don't see anything with your name on it on the same page. How far 'above' should be looking?)

The new book could be clearer about baseline assumptions, but it's not like anyone who is reading the current books could be mistaking these settings as historical reenactments.

I do not expect that someone picking up a D&D rulebook should need a reminder that it's a fantasy rpg and the stuff that happens in-game will likely differ from real world experience.

Insofar as a 'revision' to the baseline occurs, it will be a fix to a problem that shouldn't have existed.

Keep in mind no one is asking for historical accuracy, merely a better answer than "because reasons".

I accept, for example, that Captain America is a peak human. Strong, agile, tough, 20s across the board. Does things no regular person can. I can also accept that he is Worthy of Mjolnir in the fight against Thanos. I would not accept that he could start flying and shooting lightning like Thor during Ragnarok during Endgame. I'd want to know why and how. And "he leveled up since Avengers 1" isn't cutting it.

That's my cutoff point. Where suspension of disbelief occurs. A fighter who is "mundane" can do a lot of impressive things like Cappy does, but he's not doing Thor stuff unless he has a Thor origin. (Thorigin?)

 

[Incenjucar]

I think Captain America is a decent cutoff point. He's been able to knock down Hulk, hold helicopters in place, can lift 1,200 lbs, run 60mph, and has a warlordy subclass going on. He could take down a non-world-ending dragon on his own if needed by leaping up to its face and making it choke on its own breath weapon.