Masters of the Wild bloopers

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Heh and me I thought they screwed up in the 1st place by basing it around chr. I think it should of been a str based skill from the start with maybe a CHR based option. And no I'm not mixing up scare and intiidate, I just view things differently than you that's all.

Can you base that on the descriptions on the abilities as described in the PH?

Basing how well you pick a lock on your CON would not be a simple matter of viewpoint.

Your ability to control other peoples actions is clearly defined as your charisma.

If you want to say that is how you view it, fine. But a little rational would be nice. If you just play a hack and slash, it might even make sense. Enquiring minds....

 

[Ranger REG]

Not so much a blooper, but the Intimidation Through Strength varient rule on page 18 irks me.

I know some people already play this way, but, IMO, using STR instead of CHR really misses the point. And now it is in an official WotC product.

So what? There are a lot of variant rules presented in the DMG. Not all DMs use all of them in their campaigns. So what if a lot of gamers have made this a popular house rule? It's still up to your DM.

With regard to using Strength to intimidate, I can understand. You take an uncharismatic Mike Tyson, have him punch a hole in the wall (a display of strength) in front of you, and then tells you to kiss his booty with his rat squeaky voice, chances are you will obey.

 

[Christian]

How many times has this come up on these boards? (Sigh. I guess I've been hanging around here too long.)

The example I always think of in this context is the scene in Star Wars (the original movie) where R2-D2 is whipping Chewbacca at 'chess'. His size, strength, and incomprehensible ranting inspires C-3PO to respond, "He made a fair move ..." etc. But after Han's quiet comment, and response to C-3P0's response ("Droids don't rip people's arms off when they lose ..."), C-3PO suggests "a new strategy ..."

Chewie has Strength. Han has Charisma, and a fair number of ranks in Intimidate. Chewie is providing the credible threat that makes it possible for Han's intimidation to work, of course, but it's Han's Charisma and people skills that finish it.

 

[Archimago]

oh, you are SO forgetting how most of the planet was terrified by him to the point of peeing in their pants whenever he got near for many years.... And my contention is that it is NOT Mike Tyson's sense of personality that frightened millions of people - it was sheer physical prowess, unless you define Mike Tyson's look of menace in his eye as CHA...
And if you do, I think you'd properly need about 25 attributes to properly define the kind of character-definition you are looking for in your game.

I have to agree that CHA, not STR should be used for intimidation. Let's use Mike Tyson as an example. People keep speaking of Mike's physical presense as the source of his intimidation. I don't think it is because Mike is below average size for a heavyweight. He's only abou 5'10/11 220ish. Current champ Lennoc Lewis is 6'5 250ish. Yet in the boxing community Tyson is feared and Lewis is not. The real world reason is that Tyson comes off as nuts; you just never know when he's going to bite off your ear. This is his reputation and his persona in the ring, on camera, in interview, and before fights. Mike Tyson tries to intimidate people, its his schtick, and he does it by the way he looks, the way he acts, and the strange things he says (ie. one time he said he'd eat a challenger's children), not his size.
With that said, I think'll appropriate the house rule someone suggested: STR check DC 20 for +2 intimidate, -2 on failure, because acts of strength can be part of the intimidation.

 

[Droogie]

Scared is easy, controlled is hard. Intimidate is about control.

Intimidate is about control, yes. Through fear.


in·tim·i·date (n-tm-dt)
tr.v. in·tim·i·dat·ed, in·tim·i·dat·ing, in·tim·i·dates
1. To make timid; fill with fear.
2. To coerce or inhibit by or as if by threats.

I think Strength certainly qualifies as a method of intimidation. So can dex, con, int, and wis for that matter.

You say Intimidate is all about control. Well, there are plenty of ways getting people to do what you want them to do.

Diplomacy: getting people to do what you want them to through good arguments.

Bluff: getting people to do what you want through lies.

Intimidate: getting what you want with fear.

 

[Junkheap]

For one, i will always be FAR more intimitated by someones strength than his tongue. Always have, and always will be. People who play physical sports should know this. Doesn't matter what crap the other person is talking, it always will never work. Do a crushing body check to you or to someone in front of you and you WILL avoid him.

Also mind you i think charisma would also work, i am just talking about my personal experience. But again, the lower the charisma, the more psychotic, unpredictable i think the person is.

Mike tyson has high strength and very low charisma. He can beat the living bejezzus outta you, but he also bites your ears and tells you he will eat your baby.

There are many ways to intimidate and it all relies on the situation. Sometimes its strength and sometimes charisma.

 

[Tarin Greenflame]

Weeeelll back to MotW...

Is it just me, or does the tempest lack in uniqueness/power for how high the requirements are? All you really gain from the class ultimately (that cannot be obtained by other means) is 1 more offhand attack at -15 penalty to hit (thus hardly raising your damage output), and the ability to gain a block bonus at the cost of no offhand attacks that barely outclasses the kind of AC bonus you could gain from a magical shield at the high levels you are recieving the block bonuses, not to mention the other enhancements allowed by a magical shield. Oh, and a reduction in TWF penalty by 2, which some DMs allow as a normal feat anyway, and is not that huge a difference otherwise, at higher levels (the exact levels where upon you recieve the ability). The tempest is really not that much better than just taking levels in fighter, yet it's requirements are rather high.

Sure, you can specialize in TWF, but...taking fighter levels or other PrCs are similar to or greater in benefit They could have thrown in a few more *unique* abilities for the class, such as maybe making offhand attacks allow full str bonus, or something, SOMETHING more that is beneficial and unique. Maybe my expectations are too high for the class, but if so, lemme know how my logic is skewed on that matter.

Oh, and a few more PrCs geared towards casting would have been nice, but the verdant lord does nicely...

ASIDE from that, the book was good. Nice feats, PrCs, equipment, and spells, as well as the stuff for animal companions.

 

[Ranger REG]

Three off-hand attacks in addition to more than the three normal attacks are not enough for you?

Absolute Dexterity that nearly wipe out all TWF penalties? (-2 penalty, no penalty if off-hand weapon is light.)

Off-Hand Parry bonus increase beyond the feat's +2 dodge bonus?

And it's not enough for you?

 

[Gromm]

Tempest. Don't make me laugh. Just make a freakin fighter, oh sure you lose out on your off hand parry, but who really cares? At least you get something for your levels. Bonus feats can easily get you all the class abilities of this winner, and at the same progression no less (if not earlier).

Tempest is about the worst PrC I've seen in a while. No benefits save at the last level where you get an extra off hand attack at -20. Yeah, that was worth it.

And at level 12 or so -2 to your attacks has become long ago irrelevant. Your attack is probably pushing +20 or more anyway.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Intimidate is about control, yes. Through fear.


in·tim·i·date (n-tm-dt)
tr.v. in·tim·i·dat·ed, in·tim·i·dat·ing, in·tim·i·dates
1. To make timid; fill with fear.
2. To coerce or inhibit by or as if by threats.

I think Strength certainly qualifies as a method of intimidation. So can dex, con, int, and wis for that matter.

You say Intimidate is all about control. Well, there are plenty of ways getting people to do what you want them to do.

Diplomacy: getting people to do what you want them to through good arguments.

Bluff: getting people to do what you want through lies.

Intimidate: getting what you want with fear.

Fine. I have never disputed that initimdate is about fear. But it goes beyond that. Definition 2 above applies best. The key words there are "coerce or inhibit". Influencing the other person's behavior without actually harming them. The PH definition of Charisma includes: "Checks that represent an attempt to influence others." Doesn't defintion 2 above fit squarely within this?

Fear is the tool, the Intimidate skill is your skill with using that tool to make people do what you want.

I asked before, what about the wizard, he demonstrates his magic powers and then says he is going to set you on fire. Is that not scary? Why does he get less ability to intimidate people than the big guy? In D&D, where every class has its own way of making bad things happen to people who get in their way, why does STR alone count as "scary". It should not, and because the designers get that, in the core rules it does not.

I mentioned the wizard before. But no one responded to it. I am guessing that is because it blows a ten foot hole through the logic of using STR in place of CHR.

And what about big opponents. Is a Storm Giant simply immune to intimidate? The (high level) rogue or bard should still have a chance to intimidate him through knowing or guessing what the Storm Giant would be afraid to have happen. The half-orc can bend steel bars all day, who cares.

Lastly, assuming STR will always cause fear is very narrow-sighted. I still say that the Tyson example works well for me. Very few people in the real world are at all scared of him, because they now that he can't actually do anything to them. If his STR does such a great job of replacing CHR, why did he go to jail? And why is he not allowed to box right now?

Same in D&D. Crusher the half-orc pounds his fist together and demands the L1 commoner tell him where the map is, or else!!! The commoner pales. Quickly he looks around at the gathering crowd, "Quick someone, go get Sherrif Jones." A couple guys scamper off from the crowd. Slick the rogue steps up and calmly puts his hand on Crusher's chest. "I got it, Crusher. No problem here people." As Crusher angrily steps back Slick leans over and whispers in the commoner's ear. Dropping his head the commoner says, "Follow me."

I am not saying that STR can not give circumstance modifiers, I already said it should. But in a Lawful Good village with an effective town guard, it should probably be +0. In most circumstances, +2 as CRGreathouse recommended. You get a normal kobold alone in a cave, +10 or more easy, but I probably would not even require a check then. The point being that the relevance of strength on intimidation is highly variable. But the ability to influence people will always be important. So charisma should always be the key ability.