D&D 4E Material components and spell books? Get rid of them for 4e!

[Dragonblade]

I do, so you are completely, utterly wrong.

Darn it! I hate when that happens!

Well, I figured some people might use components. But it definitely seems like most people don't.

Spells books seems to be an area that some people like although the consensus seems to be to make it less crippling to a wizard player to lose, and don't make it so darn expensive or require so many pages. Wizards shouldn't ever have to carry more than one spellbook around.

 

[Mercule]

I was thinking that it'd be interesting to have something that supported the idea that a wizard needs a pretty significant number of pages (ten per spell level, maybe -- under the 1-9 system) to fully describe the theories behind a spell. But, when adventuring, all he needs are the Cliff Notes version, thus the travelling spellbook, which is a lot thinner. If the Vancian slots are only 20% of a wizard's power in 3E, it wouldn't really be unwieldy for the character.

I have no idea how the mechanic would work, but I really like the feel.

 

[Glyfair]

As a DM I'm firmly convinced that more details add to a player's experience. When my players sit at an inn to eat dinner, I tell them exactly what they're eating. There's no mechanical benefit to eat at an inn that serves wild game turkey and turnips over rat stew, but my players will choose the former because of the descriptive text.

On a 7 day overland journey do you describe every meal along the way?

"Hardtack and beef jerky."

"Hardtack and beef jerky."

"There were apples on the way and you bite into a scrumptious apple."

"Hardtack and beef jerky."

At some time it because repetitive and loses the value. At some point the party will just tell a wizard who describes the material components every time - "Yeah, bat guano, we get it."

The same thing goes for spell books.

The wizards spellbook is one of those things that I feel was horribly done in 3E. The designers made sure to set the cost of scribing a spell into the book at a high enough level so that wizards just didn't go around getting every spell they could and just put it in their spellbook. Unfortunately, this had the side effect of practically eliminating the concept of the "travelling spell book." The cost was so great, even for a limited selection of spells that no one bothered. You pretty much only saw them when someone found a Boccob's Blessed Book.

Because of the lack of the back-up spell book, spellbooks became the wizard. If he loses the spellbook completely, you might as well retired the wizard. Regaining the spells was cost prohibitive, and no one ever took Spell Mastery. Why didn't they take that feat? Because DMs never removed spellbooks because doing so was completely crippling to the wizards.

I think 4E needs to take a different approach to spellbooks, if it doesn't eliminate them all together. Perhaps the cost can be tied to imprinting the spell on the wizards mind. He needs a spellbook to prepare the spells, but creating a book with the spells is much less expensive.

Get rid of the problem that having an extra copy of a spell costs the same as getting a new spell. In that case getting a new spell wins almost every time.

 

[Jer]

The inexpensive material components rules, like encumbrance rules, are rules that I have ignored for decades and will continue to ignore until someone designs a system for them that makes me go "that's cool - I want to use that". Probably because I started with B/X D&D where material components were not only not explicitly tracked - they weren't even mentioned in the spell write-ups. (I did have some players who liked to come up with funky material components for their spells though - I always encouraged that if anyone wanted to do it).

I don't mind spell books at all - but in my perfect world spell books would be something that any arcane caster could use to supplement their spell repitoire. You'd have some selection of spells that you have "mastered" and can cast spontaneously, but you can also read spells directly out of a spell book (like you would a scroll, but using up one of your "per day" spell slots to cast it instead of having the spell "disappear" out of the book) or you can prepare a spell out of a spell book like a wizard and devote one of your per day spontaneous slots to it up front. I did that for one of my early 3e games (merging the sorcerer and the wizard into a single "mage" class) and it worked out quite nicely.

 

[Cadfan]

Ok. I think it was my post that kicked this off, so I'm going to muse a bit.

I don't think we can firmly know what should be done with components or spell books, because the changes that are being made to spell casting seem pretty dramatic, and likely to directly impact this aspect of play.

At will spell casting is NOT conducive to having to have components. If you can cast an energy blast once every six seconds from sun up to sun down, you shouldn't need a piece of a rat tail with a string tied around it for every single one. Obviously you won't be able to realistically carry that, and hand waving it hurts realism more than having the rat tail helps in the first place. The better design would be to simply not have a material component for that spell. Suddenly, through better game design, the conflict, the bookkeeping, and the headache all vanish.

But if some spells are per day, those will be cast rarely. If you can only cast your Super Awesome Spell once every 24 hours, counting components is less obnoxious. Once every day, you might use up one. No big deal. And you could hand wave them like you do under the current system, if the component is something easily obtainable that exists for flavor like a tiny rough hewn clay man or something.

I'd also like it if there was an extra tier of spells beyond the per day level, where casting them required you to obtain expensive and difficult components. If you need to light a fire from the wood of the sacred trees of MysticalLand, toss the feather of a phoenix into the flames, then douse it with unicorn milk, that's entirely another story. Now casting the spell becomes a campaign centerpiece. I wouldn't want a list of spells like this, because they should be plot specific, but I wouldn't mind guidelines for DMs to create them. This is the place where I think that components fit in best.

As for spellbooks, under 3.5 I just hand wave them. But in 4e, I think we can assume that at will and per encounter spells won't need spell books to be used. Per day spells might. But that means that a wizard won't need a full library with him at all times (or the standard issue magical spell book in the DMG). He'll just need one book to cover his per day spells, and if he loses it, he can still function pretty well. So the downside of a spell book won't exist as strongly, meaning there's less reason to eliminate them.

This is of course all speculation about what's happening with magic in 4e.

 

[JDJblatherings]

keep the components they add flavor. Power components are a great idea that few explore, start introducing a few of those and I promise you players will carefully track every dram of bat-guano or leather strap they can shove in their magic-bag. Magical focus that can impact a spells utility are a great idea also.

Spellbooks are out right essential for the classical D&D wizard they serve function over fluff. They are an essential resource that must be used and protected. don't want to deal with them...play a sorceror.

 

[Glyfair]

At will spell casting is NOT conducive to having to have components.

But they could have focuses. While they don't have as much overhead as components, they do have a certain amount of tracking.

In fact, I think I sort of like the idea of requiring "at will" abilities to have focuses. Not sure how it would work in practice,] but I do see a certain amount of flavor attached. Especially if limited to a handful of focuses (sort of like Monte's Magister).

 

[Kaodi]

Spellbooks should be used to make your spells better, instead of being an all or nothing affair like they are now. Wands and maybe staves are apparently going to empower you in some way or another, spellbooks should be in a different way from that. Same thing for optional power components.

So, if you use a staff, and a spellbook, and a power component, your spell should kick ass.

 

[tlantl]

Spell books used to be very important treasure items. Sure the rules requiring a page for each spell level were a bit much, but the books themselves were indispensable since the only way to gain new spells was to find them and transfer the spells into your own book. There was no such thing as automatically learning new spells just because you gain a level. People complain that wizards are too powerful but continue to want to make it easier and easier for them to dominate a game.

Material components add flavor to the class. I usually agree with the common and easily obtainable components being found at any apothecary shop, but if it comes from a creature or has to be mined and is rare then the player is either out of luck or she needs to go out and actually find the components she needs.

I had a gnome Illusionist thief who's signature spell was chromatic orb. I used to sneak off during fights to scope out the monster's treasure for 50 gp gems to power my arsenal. I would usually subtract the value of the gems I took from my share of the treasure, though. It cost a lot and my collection would ebb and flow as the game went on. He usually wound up the most wounded of the party as a result, since the DM was a little sadistic and enjoyed slaughtering him when he went off alone.

As I see it, removing components completely would take D&D one step further away from itself and turn it into something else entirely. Making up an entirely different game and calling it D&D is not the same as working with what is already there and doing your best to make it better. Tossing out spell books and components is turning our game into something else that is only called D&D.

 

[blue.octopus]

Components should be limited to ritual type spells - those that take turns to cast (typically out of combat) and that are difficult. The components and other items should help increase your chance of success. For normal spells get rif of them, or use focus items instead.