Obviously it's going to depend on the subject. Mature content for the sake of mature content won't appeal to me (the book of erotic darkness, or what ever it was called leaps immediately to mind), however, something awesome that happens to have things of a mature nature would be fine.
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Mature content
- Thread starter HardcoreDandDGirl
- Start date
Voadam
Legend
I like the level of WoD books.
Sword and Sorcery classic themes like having fertility/sexual passion goddesses as part of the pantheons and wenching are genre appropriate IMO. I thought the theme of Sisters of Rapture interesting enough to get the book (Devotees of three passion goddess' from separate cultural pantheons forming together to make one cult).
I like some darker, harsher RPG stuff, Paizo themes are decent, as are CoC, Elric!, etc.
I often get demon and devil type supplements though I never got BoVD so I can't comment on it. I'm still puzzled why Book of Exalted Deeds got a mature audiences label.
I expect drow sourcebooks to have dark themes that can include adult mature stuff.
I found the revised d20 license that included the morality clauses dissapointing, I did not mind nipples in RPG artwork. GSL just continues that without an OGL safe haven option for those who don't want to use the brand logo.
I found the mature restriction in Paizo's license jarring, as I'm not sure Paizo stuff fits their own descriptions. Paizo people have stated they don't feel they could put their stuff out under the GSL's clause. At least it is just a brand and image license use and not a rules license and everyone is free to make adult mature Pathfinder compatible stuff under the OGL.
Mercule
Adventurer
I'm of two minds on the matter.
First, I consider D&D to be more of an "intro game". That isn't to say that it isn't loads of fun for experienced gamers, just that it is in a market position to be the first game someone plays. I started playing D&D when I was 10ish, so I look at it from the perspective that the core books should be appropriate for kids of that age (I'd say the Red Box was, but AD&D maybe not with the wandering harlots and nekkid succubi but only marginally so). My daughter is nearing that age, and I'm looking at starting her with something appropriate. Killing stuff as a matter of course is probably questionable enough for a pre-teen, so I'm fine keeping "mature" out of it at a baseline.
On the other hand, I'm an adult and have no problem running or participating in "mature" games. By that, I mean games that involve serious philosophic questions. You can take gratuitous right out. Yes, I get that you sometimes need some graphic descriptions of scenes to evoke the right feel, but IME, that's often not handled as well as either the GM or the author thinks it is. I've run some games that were well received by the players and were in the R to NC-17 range for "mature themes" rather than violence or sexual content -- often, hinting at those is far more effective than drawing the whole picture.
If someone wanted to publish a book on including mature themes in a pseudo-Medieval fantasy game, I'd consider purchasing it. But, I also doubt that there'd be need for many system-specific mechanics, either. No need to use the GSL.
If nothing else, the definition of "mature" vs. "sophomoric" is so subjective that I think both Paizo and WotC are more than justified in including a policy requiring their approval.
First, I consider D&D to be more of an "intro game". That isn't to say that it isn't loads of fun for experienced gamers, just that it is in a market position to be the first game someone plays. I started playing D&D when I was 10ish, so I look at it from the perspective that the core books should be appropriate for kids of that age (I'd say the Red Box was, but AD&D maybe not with the wandering harlots and nekkid succubi but only marginally so). My daughter is nearing that age, and I'm looking at starting her with something appropriate. Killing stuff as a matter of course is probably questionable enough for a pre-teen, so I'm fine keeping "mature" out of it at a baseline.
On the other hand, I'm an adult and have no problem running or participating in "mature" games. By that, I mean games that involve serious philosophic questions. You can take gratuitous right out. Yes, I get that you sometimes need some graphic descriptions of scenes to evoke the right feel, but IME, that's often not handled as well as either the GM or the author thinks it is. I've run some games that were well received by the players and were in the R to NC-17 range for "mature themes" rather than violence or sexual content -- often, hinting at those is far more effective than drawing the whole picture.
If someone wanted to publish a book on including mature themes in a pseudo-Medieval fantasy game, I'd consider purchasing it. But, I also doubt that there'd be need for many system-specific mechanics, either. No need to use the GSL.
If nothing else, the definition of "mature" vs. "sophomoric" is so subjective that I think both Paizo and WotC are more than justified in including a policy requiring their approval.
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Neither did I, though I do have to ask — what meaningful contribution did their inclusion make? As far as I can tell, the answer is "none," so I have to wonder why one would include them at all.
roguerouge
First Post
Ah, but would we have had the great dragonborn boob debate without the nipple debate preceding it?
I have to go with a few others here - much of the "mature" content has seemed to me to be handled in an immature, puerile manner. Part of this is because "mature" seems to be a keyword for "kinkier than thou" and "just disgusting".
But, some of that may also be due to concentration. What would be an interesting note in a game becomes ridiculous when set next to 27 other nasty, gory, dark-sex-focused stuff. Overload of mature ceases to be mature, in my opinion.
So, I expect I'd not buy a book which had the mature content as its major focus. An adventure or sourcebook that contained some select, well-designed, thoughtfully written mature content, that fit the rest of the flavor of the piece, then it might be worth it.
But, some of that may also be due to concentration. What would be an interesting note in a game becomes ridiculous when set next to 27 other nasty, gory, dark-sex-focused stuff. Overload of mature ceases to be mature, in my opinion.
So, I expect I'd not buy a book which had the mature content as its major focus. An adventure or sourcebook that contained some select, well-designed, thoughtfully written mature content, that fit the rest of the flavor of the piece, then it might be worth it.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
I really don't like this line of reasoning. If you ask "what did X actually contribute, really?" then you can get rid of almost anything.
"What does artwork in RPGs contribute, really? It doesn't help to explain the rules, unless it's a diagram or map. It pads page count, and drives up production prices, which tend to be passed on to the consumers. And a lot of the time people will actively dislike the artwork you have and hold it against your product, so it's likely that your art will actually be a detriment to your work. Do we really need artwork to just serve as eye-candy, for no better reason than to have people say "ooh, look, a pretty picture"? Honestly, what does artwork in RPGs really add to them? I say, nothing, so why include them at all?"
If the value of a contribution in something designed to entertain us (such as a role-playing game) can't just be that we like it for its own sake, then there's little point in finding enjoyment in entertainment at all.
Certain types of mature content is important. I don't really need tables and stuff, what I really want is fluff, and things that give me ideas.
Sure, a table on various types of STD's might be useful. Knowledge of how "genital rot" works could come in handy. How can issues such as prostitution be treated tactfully, as well as how they should be played. What type of prostitutes could exist? What are the chances of contracting a STD?
However, outside of sexual content, which really isn't all that important to me, I'd like things that help me with flavor. What does a slave market look like? How do you inspect a slave to know that you're getting a good deal? How much would a slave generally cost based on quality? Do certain races make better slaves than others? What other types of slavery exist outside of simple chattel?
When it comes to torture, what are some creative things to do outside of simply pulling out fingernails? What are some good guidelines to handle such things tactfully?
What is it like when you are captured by Drow? I have argued in the past that all male slaves of Drow are castrated unless they are used for breeding. Is this true? What happens to a male once he is castrated, both physically and psychologically?
Give me some suggestions on creating a complex and interesting villain. Give me suggestions on how to add gritty flavor to my game, and how to get players to create evil characters that aren't cartoon caricatures.
These are all things that I think any DM, regardless of their preferred level of maturity would find useful. Even if they used nothing in the book, they should still walk away with a hundred different ideas.
In a nutshell the book should provide the following: suggestions on how to handle mature content tactfully, tips that help DMs add flavor to their games, and methods to help a DM come up with their own mature content ideas.
Sure, a table on various types of STD's might be useful. Knowledge of how "genital rot" works could come in handy. How can issues such as prostitution be treated tactfully, as well as how they should be played. What type of prostitutes could exist? What are the chances of contracting a STD?
However, outside of sexual content, which really isn't all that important to me, I'd like things that help me with flavor. What does a slave market look like? How do you inspect a slave to know that you're getting a good deal? How much would a slave generally cost based on quality? Do certain races make better slaves than others? What other types of slavery exist outside of simple chattel?
When it comes to torture, what are some creative things to do outside of simply pulling out fingernails? What are some good guidelines to handle such things tactfully?
What is it like when you are captured by Drow? I have argued in the past that all male slaves of Drow are castrated unless they are used for breeding. Is this true? What happens to a male once he is castrated, both physically and psychologically?
Give me some suggestions on creating a complex and interesting villain. Give me suggestions on how to add gritty flavor to my game, and how to get players to create evil characters that aren't cartoon caricatures.
These are all things that I think any DM, regardless of their preferred level of maturity would find useful. Even if they used nothing in the book, they should still walk away with a hundred different ideas.
In a nutshell the book should provide the following: suggestions on how to handle mature content tactfully, tips that help DMs add flavor to their games, and methods to help a DM come up with their own mature content ideas.
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wedgeski
Adventurer
Very interesting discussion, as always. Like most things in D&D, it's all in the presentation if you ask me.
As a DM, over the years I've narrated slavery, torture, genocide, temptation, flirtation, sex... just about everything, but it's never been a question of what is comfortable at the table because I don't feel the need to switch out of 'standard 5-speed stick' D&D.
Fights are narrated as amusing, over-the-top displays of heroism and/or stupidity and/or luck. Sexual encounters are narrated in exactly the same way. As a for instance, in a recent session the party arrived at a desert city only to be greeted by no less than the Khan himself, a perfect picture of strength and charisma. He was immediately set upon by the notorious flirt of the party (a high-Cha Sorcerer played by a guy, by the way), only to have her approaches reflected back at her ten-fold. Suffice is to say, they both got lucky that night, and DM and players had a good laugh. Nothing uncomfortable, no dice rolls required, everyone happy. Mature content? Yes by many definitions, but I would bet real money that the exact same bit of roleplaying has been executed a thousand times before at hundreds of different tables.
I guess my point is, D&D doesn't *need* its mature content codifying, and I don't *need* suggestions on handling these subjects tactfully. The D&D language I've been speaking for 25 years is perfectly adequate.
As a DM, over the years I've narrated slavery, torture, genocide, temptation, flirtation, sex... just about everything, but it's never been a question of what is comfortable at the table because I don't feel the need to switch out of 'standard 5-speed stick' D&D.
Fights are narrated as amusing, over-the-top displays of heroism and/or stupidity and/or luck. Sexual encounters are narrated in exactly the same way. As a for instance, in a recent session the party arrived at a desert city only to be greeted by no less than the Khan himself, a perfect picture of strength and charisma. He was immediately set upon by the notorious flirt of the party (a high-Cha Sorcerer played by a guy, by the way), only to have her approaches reflected back at her ten-fold. Suffice is to say, they both got lucky that night, and DM and players had a good laugh. Nothing uncomfortable, no dice rolls required, everyone happy. Mature content? Yes by many definitions, but I would bet real money that the exact same bit of roleplaying has been executed a thousand times before at hundreds of different tables.
I guess my point is, D&D doesn't *need* its mature content codifying, and I don't *need* suggestions on handling these subjects tactfully. The D&D language I've been speaking for 25 years is perfectly adequate.
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