Maximized Dispel?

[Scion]

An ioun stone for +1 caster level would be 30,000gp. What other items are there? I could be wrong, but don't most dictionaries define "couple" as "two"? Again, more proof we're using the same words to mean different things.

Prc's, feats, items that pop up now and then. Therefor there are some, and there could be many, depending on the campaign.

The vast majority of the time, the ability to dispel anything that a remove curse can remove is not a big deal. Certainly not enough to warrant using it over maximized dispel magic. Got a problem with a curse? Memorize a Remove Curse.

Ahh yes.. we should ignore that greater dispel is better because it hurts your case.

Nah, it is important to see and to know, and it is just plain better. Especially once you hit the higher levels. Like I said, no problem. Spending the feat makes another option better for awhile, nothing wrong with that at all.

Isn't that nice. You like something, so disregard others' opinions as having "no reason."

Since you have refused to give a valid reason, other than saying that you have 'a laundry list'. Yes, I will disregard that. I invited you to send me a list of the problems you had with it, but so far I have gotten nothing.

a) "There is nothing wrong with the miniatures handbook"
b) "every book will have a few problems"
thus we can deduce
c) The Miniatures Handbook is not a book.

Isnt that nice. You can use faulty logic.

In any event though, the miniatures handbook is a book, there is nothing wrong with it (in the scope of definition given from the core books themselves, since the core has more problems than the miniatures handbook by far). This makes me believe even less in this 'laundry list'.



As for the rest, you are babbling to my babbling. That is fine, I deserve that, but then so do you in this case

Maximized dispel is better than greater in some ways, but not all. Which means that by spending a feat the character expands their options by a bit for a time before having to move on. What is wrong with that?

The dispel tree does what it is intended to do, maximize would only make it more likely to do so, but it doesnt do an incredible deal anyway.

It will, most likely, get rid of all buffs on one target. Either dispel has a good chance of doing this anyway, so only a minor change there. At higher levels greater dispel is much better in every way. At lower levels it is still better to memorize the greater over the regular.

Maximize is pretty useless most of the time anyway, giving it a use, that is far from overpowered isnt a bad thing. Can you show a time when this would be overpowered? you said look above, but nothing above was said that would make it overpowered. It might get more use sometimes? cool, it is already hard to use. It has a much better chance of countering that spell? all right then, it still doesnt hold a candle to a certain second level spell.

The fact that it costs so much for the extra ability, which might not even be extra ability, isnt a huge factor. If you only need to roll a 15 then by spending three more levels and the feat you basically only increased its usefulness by 25%, not exactly a huge margin.


It is not unlikely to roll a 20 on a d20 anyway, changing 10d6 to 60 is a huge shift in probability, changing a d20 to a 20 is tiny in comparison.

So in the end it just makes the spell more dependable, at a cost. That is fine. With appropriate precautions (like a spell that increases the difficulty to dispel your buffs, I forget what it was called though) it is still impossible to do so. Or possibly only just barely possible, in which case the pc's paid the price to be able to get by a defense. Powerful? yes, overpowered? has yet to be shown. From what I've seen it basically takes out the buffs on one guy, or takes out a buff each from a few people, and that is at best. Or greater dispel could be memorized, without having to spend the feat, be able to the same job a good portion of the time, and have more options (such as remove curse). Seems fine.

 

[Scion]

Had to comment uselessly some more

You keep saying maximize has few uses. I disagree.

Yeah, name some.

If your foe is 30th caster level. How often does that happen?

Or has items to increase caster level. Chance vs No Chance. That is the point.

That's one for you, two for me.

Counting back I still havent found a single point for you. Where are you hiding them?

Looks like we're tied at one for one. Technically though, you'll never reduce it to 0%, because no matter what you do, a 1 will always fail. An even if you do manage to keep your spellcasting abilities, what about the powerful being whose interest you just attracted. I hope it isn't someone who didn't want that artifact destroyed.

Sure, probably cant make it 0%, however, you can make it 5% (only fail on a one) but then get at least one reroll. A one in 400 chance is close enough to zero in most cases for me

The other disadvantages are pretty negligable, if you just killed a level 20 character he was probably a power in some organization, they will be upset with you anyway. So no real difference in the two.

I already have. Try scrolling up. Until you can do that, my end of this conversation is over.

I can reread all of your comments all you like, but they still say nothing I didnt say in my own posts. But my conclusions are vastly different than yours, that is all. I like to let feats have uses, currently maximize is way below on the use chart. Doesnt matter though, there isnt really anything inherantly overpowered with it. You can debuff one guy most likely, you probably could've anyway. You can partially debuff a few people, you probably could've anyway. All it does is keep it an option for longer and gives people with maximize a bit more of an edge with it.

So where is the overpowered part?

 

[reiella]

Well, my opinion on allowing the Caster Level check to be maximized is that for the same reason you won't be allowing someone to maximize the Craft check portion of Fabricate. While they may be random factors, they are not random factors inherit to the spell, but rather inherit to the spellcaster.

And for uses for Maximize?

Well it allows you to fill gaps in damage dealing. It is particularly interesting when you if your campaign doesn't allow Elemental Substitution, it can serve as a poor man's elemental sub to make those lower level elemental DDs more viable.

Well consider the Maximized Fireball (10d6 ~= 60 damage), 6th level spell.

Now consider, Chain Lightning, (15d6 Singel Target + 15d6/2 Secondary Targets). 15*3.5 (52.5 Damage + 26.25 Secondary damage). Maxied Fireball deals a lil bit more damage over the area typically, and more damage (on average) than the Chain Lightning to a single target. Chain lightning has greater damage potential however (but at the same time, it is equally likly to deal more damage or less damage).

Also consider freezing sphere (in it's area effect) 15d6 to a 10 foot radius burst. It has a smaller burst area, and deals 52.5 damage to the damage region, still less on 'average' than the Maximized Fireball, but again as with Chain lightning, it has greater variance. Against water elementals, at least the Sphere deals 15d8 (average 67.5).

Now, let's compare against a 4th level spell that gets empowered. And I'm actually at a loss to find any decent 4th level DD spells for Wiz/Sor . Most are kinda nice area spells (like Ice Storm and the Walls), but are more so 'area surpression' rather than strictly DD.

Seems like it's fairly useful for a Blast Mage type, unless you have weighted dice or are 'Really Lucky'. Of course, not all Mages play Blast Mages, and that's a good thing . Metamagic feats, however, are really epitomized with them .

 

[Will]

My players use maximize a lot for damage spells, including fireball and a few others. I think I saw a maximized sunburst and... oh, well, actually the divine casters like to use incense of meditation and get free maximize effects. Paying a few thousand gp at high level is well worth a full run of maximal effects.

Actually, I think maximize is very worth it for a caster with Craft Rod and making a metamagic rod of maximize. _Free_ maximize 3 times a day is, imo, well worth it.

 

[Scion]

Problem is though, that in the end it is roughly comparable in damage perhaps, but the save dc is 3 points lower. That is very significant, so the character spent a feat to be not really as good as someone who didnt.. there is a problem there somewhere

Rod of maximize is nice though, pretty pricy, but nice.

 

[reiella]

Problem is though, that in the end it is roughly comparable in damage perhaps, but the save dc is 3 points lower. That is very significant, so the character spent a feat to be not really as good as someone who didnt.. there is a problem there somewhere

Rod of maximize is nice though, pretty pricy, but nice.

Well, I'd state it's superior in damage, but suffers in the DC category .

7.5 damage more is a hitdie or three (dependant on their 'Mook Rating' ).

Also, spell DC hits hurt, but of course, if you use Ray spells, metamagic shines real nice, as the Spell DC "cost" becomes irrelevant.

Consider the 5th level Maximized Scorching ray (96 points of damage, even splittable four ways, no save) versus the 6th level Chain Lightning (52.5 damage).

Also situationally note, that a maximized (or metamagicked in general) spell with a lower Max Applicable Caster level (such as 10d6 for Fireball) can be more thoroughly exploited in level gaps. Consider that at 11th caster level through 15th, the Maximized Fireball is going to be doing it's 60 damage each level versus (38.5, 42, 45.5, 49, 52.5) as the spellcaster progresses to reach the Max Hit at level 15. At 11th level, the Freezing Sphere will 'not be saved' 15% more than the Maximized Fireball. Evasion also tilts in favor of the higher level spells of this sort.

Of course, by 15, you're capable of using 8th level spells, and have another fun opportunity to introduce more damaging combo of Empowered Maximized Fireball (60 + 35/2, or 77.5), with a 25% greater chance of being saved against. However, note at 8th level, there are no Evocation AE spells (sans Sunburst, which is more an AE Debuff than AE Damage), so it at least 'fills a gap' for one level for a specialist type. Horrid Wilting makes a good example, but it uses a different save and is a different school (which carries other results). Horrid Wilting will 'damage cap' at 20th, but until then it deals (52.5,56,59.5,63,66.5). It also has a bit more control of your targeting.

[ Note, considering the same school typically as it means Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus/Tatoo Focus equally benefit both spells. Also not considering the boons of certain Prestige Classes and Feats which would increase specific caster level in reference to certain elemental spells, or also decrease the Metamagic spell-slot cost]

Of course, might just be a difference of opinion and experience in the matter of metamagic'd spells .

 

[Scion]

Consider the 5th level Maximized Scorching ray (96 points of damage, even splittable four ways, no save) versus the 6th level Chain Lightning (52.5 damage).

Sadly chain lightning isnt always the best spell anyway, while scorching ray is considered by most to be a very superiour second level spell but still, most of the time I'd rather use empower than maximize (even double empower, when that is allowed).

Not terribly important though some metamagics just dont have as much going for them as others.. seems like there should be an easy fix.. havent ever seen one though I'd prefer that the person who used the feat to be slightly better when they used it, because it is limited in its uses and certain points fall behind (such as the scorching ray above is stopped by any of the globes, and other such spells)