Maybe this is where the magic went...(Forked Thread: Where Has All the Magic Gone?)

[billd91]

You know, I personally disagree with the unstated assumption that in 1e/2e you were supposed to Mcguyver your way past encounters

It's not like it was supposed to be that way, but since the focus was more on exploration and overcoming the obstacles for doing so--however you succeeded in doing it--rather than carefully balanced combat powers, you did tend to see some pretty funky approaches to the task.

I mean, really, would A4 - Dungeons of the Slavelords be nearly as interesting a module with 4e combat powers, a good many of which would be usable with the light improvised weapons you kit up through the course of the adventure?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I mean, really, would A4 - Dungeons of the Slavelords be nearly as interesting a module with 4e combat powers, a good many of which would be usable with the light improvised weapons you kit up through the course of the adventure?

IMHO? Not so much.

 

[Sir Brennen]

This discussion leaves me wondering-how many magic items do you see anymore that are not related to combat in some way?

For the record, I still see items like a bag of holding, a feather boat and portable hole even in the 4E PHB's smaller magic item selection. Adventurer's Vault has plenty more non-combat specific items and even some combat items which might be creatively applied to non-combat situations.

 

[AllisterH]

It's not like it was supposed to be that way, but since the focus was more on exploration and overcoming the obstacles for doing so--however you succeeded in doing it--rather than carefully balanced combat powers, you did tend to see some pretty funky approaches to the task.

I mean, really, would A4 - Dungeons of the Slavelords be nearly as interesting a module with 4e combat powers, a good many of which would be usable with the light improvised weapons you kit up through the course of the adventure?

Er, that's not a good argument IMHO.

That adventure basically says that the PCs are more their gear than their actual class which many find distasteful....

 

[Jhaelen]

In all honesty, I always felt that the fun of non-combat magical items (decanter of endless water, folding boat) was finding creative ways to use them in combat. Which sorta defeats the purpose of being strictly non-combat. As soon as it's combat usable, you need to balance out its use in combat. And that takes away the overtly usefulness of it outside of combat.

Exactly my thought. This isn't restricted to magic items either. In 1E/2E 'non-combat' spells have been 'abused' to affect combat all the time. The lower the spell's level that allows you to win/circumvent a conflict or defeat a foe, the better.

Using utility items for their intended purpose only turns them into 'second class' items. Players will only be interested in getting them after having a complete allotment of magic items to help them in combat.

 

[Fifth Element]

I mean, really, would A4 - Dungeons of the Slavelords be nearly as interesting a module with 4e combat powers, a good many of which would be usable with the light improvised weapons you kit up through the course of the adventure?

If it were designed to be used with 4E? I don't see why not.

 

[billd91]

I mean, really, would A4 - Dungeons of the Slavelords be nearly as interesting a module with 4e combat powers, a good many of which would be usable with the light improvised weapons you kit up through the course of the adventure?

If it were designed to be used with 4E? I don't see why not.

Consider that the meat of A4 was how to survive and escape the dungeon and then take revenge and regain your gear without your usual suite of powers - spells, protective devices, weapons, misc magic in 1e. Now consider that the vast majority of those abilities are inherent to the character in 4e with no clear way of preventing someone from accessing them.

In 1e-3e, removing those powers is easy as pie... well, as easy as capturing the characters at any rate. Is there even a mechanism for doing similar in 4e? I suppose keeping the PCs from having an extended rest would keep them away from their dailies and from regaining healing surges. But you'd have to really step up the time-table in A4 or run lots of wandering critters after them to prevent them from just regaining them with an immediate rest. But I don't know of any way to deprive them of their encounter powers or at wills or, in most cases, preventing them from using them with the random oddments of improvised weapons they manage to find in the caverns. It would have to be a very different scenario as far as I can tell.

 

[Allister]

Maybe, maybe not.

If you took away the gear of a 4e PC, the biggest effect would be that they would not be as resilient and as accurate, but this aspect would be true in the original rules as well....

That said, a 4E PC is much less gear dependent than his earlier counterparts, but isn't that what many people decried about earlier PCs?

Basically, you got to pick your poison...Either PCs are inherently capable of outstanding things or the gear makes the man...

 

[billd91]

Maybe, maybe not.

If you took away the gear of a 4e PC, the biggest effect would be that they would not be as resilient and as accurate, but this aspect would be true in the original rules as well....

That said, a 4E PC is much less gear dependent than his earlier counterparts, but isn't that what many people decried about earlier PCs?

Basically, you got to pick your poison...Either PCs are inherently capable of outstanding things or the gear makes the man...

A4 went way beyond not having gear. You were also largely without spells unless you managed to catch enough rest or somehow found some material components. So it was a question of what kind of character you had... without relying on magic or powerful gear. Obviously, fighters had a tendency to shine in that adventure since they could cope with less of that than wizards or clerics.

But I've always rejected the notion that a PC in any previous edition was just a collection of gear, particularly in 3e when so many items were dialed down to moderate bonuses. That stuff just makes the job easier. Without it, you just have to be more judicious about things you do and how you do them.
Casting the issue as being either inherently capable of outstanding things or the gear makes the man is far too binary. PCs, even without magical gear, tend to be capable of pretty outstanding things.

 

[Cadfan]

I listen to people bitch about how 3.5E has become *bloated* and groaning under the crushing weight of all of these rules, too many options, hundreds of prestige classes, thousands of spells, hundreds and hundreds of magic items, the *Christmas Tree Effect*, and so on. Thus, the game needs 4E, and the time is right for a new edition, even long overdue.

Now, wait just a damned minute. I call that absolute hypocrisy. I well remember many many people--lets say to generalise, I imagine--these same people--in days not so long ago, where they bitched, and moaned, about how D&D in the new edition (3.0, 3.5) *NEEDED* and that they *WANTED* lots of "flexibility"; lots of "Customization"; Much more "Options", more *Cool Items"; blah, blah, blah.

3.0/3.5 GAVE US ALL OF THAT. Now, somehow, they don't want that, and it's high time for a new edition? How about make up your minds? I mean, damn...the same thing is gonna happen with 4E, because gamers always want more, more, more! Guess what? Eventually, 4E will be "Bloated" with too much everything as well!

Yes, clearly, it is exactly the same people making both complaints.