D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

[Flamestrike]

If the basic monk is equivalent to the standard sword-and-board champion Fighter, there is no monk equivalent of the Hand crossbow-using Sharpshooter crossbow expert Battlemaster fighter.

Yet the Sharpshooter/ Crossbow expert BM fighter loses in a duel at 30' to a Kensai Monk from 5th level onwards, with the gap only increasing (in favor of the Kensai) as the two advance in level.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yet the Sharpshooter/ Crossbow expert BM fighter loses in a duel at 30' to a Kensai Monk from 5th level onwards, with the gap only increasing (in favor of the Kensai) as the two advance in level.

My monk win some one on one duals. My monk was awesome but.....

1. It was early in 5E

2. Rolled good stats eg started with an 18 and 16 iirc.

3. We were a bit more generous with magic items. Had a decent magic spear or sword iirc.

4. Picked the best archetype (accidentally).

5. Knew how to pace the ki and was proactive in getting short rests.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Yet the Sharpshooter/ Crossbow expert BM fighter loses in a duel at 30' to a Kensai Monk from 5th level onwards, with the gap only increasing (in favor of the Kensai) as the two advance in level.

Really? How does that work out? I would have thought that out of both shooting at a level-appropriate target, the fighter build would deal more damage. - They are both getting three attacks (unless the fighter action surges) but the fighter has a better chance of hitting due to combat style and precision attack.

 

[Zardnaar]

Really? How does that work out? I would have thought that out of both shooting at a level-appropriate target, the fighter build would deal more damage. - They are both getting three attacks (unless the fighter action surges) but the fighter has a better chance of hitting due to combat style and precision attack.

Probably deflect arrows plus stunning etc.

 

[Flamestrike]

My monk win some one on one duals. My monk was awesome but.....

1. It was early in D&D

2. Rolled good stats eg started with an 18 and 16 iirc.

3. We were a bit more generous with magic items. Had a decent magic spear or sword iirc.

4. Picked the best archetype (accidentally).

5. Knew how to pace the ki and was proactive in getting short rests.

Using point buy and feats, the Kensai Monk is a 50/50 with the BM/SS/CE Fighter from 5th level onwards, at a starting range of 40'.

Human(V) Monk, Feats Martial Adept [Ambush, Menacing attack], Alert, D: 16, W 16, Con 14, W 10 S/Ch 8

Winning initiative is key (as it often is). He has +8 to initiative (and an extra d6 from Ambush if needed) vs the SS/CE BM's +3 (and maybe +1d8 from Ambush if selected).

He should go first, move 40', attack with a sword, fist and flurry for 2 more fists all at +6 vs an AC of 16 for the BM.

Two (of the 4) should hit, he spams Stunning strike on each, and the Fighter should (on average) fail 1 of the 2 x DC 14 Con saves (even with Con Save of +6), taking 1d10 (sword) +1d6 (martial arts) + 6 damage (15 damage) and using 3 Ki points.

Next turn the Monk unloads on the Fighter (at advantage) again flurrying and should hit 3/4 times now thanks to advantage, dealing 1d10+2d6+1d6 from Menacing +9 (another 25 damage) and triggering a Wisdom save (DC14 so the Fighter usually fails).

The Monk now has 1 Ki point left and the Fighter has taken 40 damage, and is frightened of the Monk (whos AC is currently 18).

Fighter has 9 HP left (presuming Con 16)

With disadvantage vs AC 18, he Action surges, choosing not to use Sharpshooter (+3 vs AC 18 at disadvantage is unlikely). At +8 vs AC 18 he hits 2/4. He uses precise shot on both attacks that miss, turning them both into hits, and blows his other 2 Superiority dice on Pushing attack on the two that hit without Precise shot.

We'll even let one of the hits be with Sharpshooter 'on'.

He deals a whopping 4d6+2d8+22 or 45 points of damage of which the Kensai absorbs 13 of this damage with deflect arrows.

As a bonus action he Heals 10 hit points with Second wind (now on 19 HP). He has now used all his Sup dice, Action surge, and Second Wind.

The Monk has 7 HP, and 1 Ki point left, and its his turn.

He attacks 4 times (flurry) vs AC 16 at +6 - two hit, for 1d10+1d6+6 (15 damage).

Fighter (now with 4 HP) attacks 3 times vs AC 18 at +8. He gets 1 1/2 hits out of 3, of which the Monk can deflect 1.

If the Fighter hits with the third attack, and rolls 4 or better on his d6 he wins. Otherwise the Kensai kills him next turn.

Pretty even, and we're talking about a fight with 'THE' DPR king of the game in the SS/CE BM.

 

[Flamestrike]

Really? How does that work out? I would have thought that out of both shooting at a level-appropriate target, the fighter build would deal more damage. - They are both getting three attacks (unless the fighter action surges) but the fighter has a better chance of hitting due to combat style and precision attack.

See above.

And its not just damage (although your kensai is no slouch here). The Monk is stunning things, which increases the whole parties damage, while negating an entire turns worth of damage in return.

 

[Zardnaar]

Using point buy and feats, the Kensai Monk is a 50/50 with the BM/SS/CE Fighter from 5th level onwards, at a starting range of 40'.

Human(V) Monk, Feats Martial Adept [Ambush, Menacing attack], Alert, D: 16, W 16, Con 14, W 10 S/Ch 8

Winning initiative is key (as it often is). He has +8 to initiative (and an extra d6 from Ambush if needed) vs the SS/CE BM's +3 (and maybe +1d8 from Ambush if selected).

He should go first, move 40', attack with a sword, fist and flurry for 2 more fists all at +6 vs an AC of 16 for the BM.

Two (of the 4) should hit, he spams Stunning strike on each, and the Fighter should (on average) fail 1 of the 2 x DC 14 Con saves (even with Con Save of +6), taking 1d10 (sword) +1d6 (martial arts) + 6 damage (15 damage) and using 3 Ki points.

Next turn the Monk unloads on the Fighter (at advantage) again flurrying and should hit 3/4 times now thanks to advantage, dealing 1d10+2d6+1d6 from Menacing +9 (another 25 damage) and triggering a Wisdom save (DC14 so the Fighter usually fails).

The Monk now has 1 Ki point left and the Fighter has taken 40 damage, and is frightened of the Monk (whos AC is currently 18).

Fighter has 9 HP left (presuming Con 16)

With disadvantage vs AC 18, he Action surges, choosing not to use Sharpshooter (+3 vs AC 18 at disadvantage is unlikely). At +8 vs AC 18 he hits 2/4. He uses precise shot on both attacks that miss, turning them both into hits, and blows his other 2 Superiority dice on Pushing attack on the two that hit without Precise shot.

He deals a whopping 4d6+2d8+24 or 47 points of damage of which the Kensai absorbs 13 of this damage with deflect arrows.

As a bonus action he Heals 10 hit points with Second wind (now on 19 HP). He has now used all his Sup dice, Action surge, and Second Wind.

The Monk has 5 HP, and 1 Ki point left, and its his turn.

He attacks 4 times (flurry) vs AC 16 at +6 - two hit, for 1d10+1d6+6 (15 damage).

Fighter (now with 4 HP) attacks 3 times vs AC 18 at +8. He gets 1 1/2 hits out of 3, of which the Monk can deflect 1.

If the Fighter hits with the third attack, and rolls 2 or better on his d6 he wins. Otherwise the Kensai kills him next turn.

Pretty even, and we're talking about a fight with 'THE' DPR king of the game in the SS/CE BM.

Except they don't fight each other in game and the Monk stinks at range where the fighter can just move soak the AoO and unleash.

Monk is more if a rogue replacement giving up skills fire more combat oomph.

Monks also ok mano a mano situations.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Yet the Sharpshooter/ Crossbow expert BM fighter loses in a duel at 30' to a Kensai Monk from 5th level onwards, with the gap only increasing (in favor of the Kensai) as the two advance in level.

Ah. So this is based on two characters fighting each other and the ability to create a build countering one specific threat, not the relative levels of optimisation available to a class?

 

[Flamestrike]

Except they don't fight each other in game and the Monk stinks at range where the fighter can just move soak the AoO and unleash.

Why would the Fighter move? He's a CE. He can shoot just fine in melee.

Ah. So this is based on two characters fighting each other and the ability to create a build countering one specific threat, not the relative levels of optimisation available to a class?

I said in a duel with each other at 40'. You were the one that brought up the 'uber optimized BM/CE/SS Fighter' and how the monk has no answer to that.

I was just pointing out that a Kensai monk (considered one of the weaker subclasses) can hold his own against precisely that exact 'build'.

And as for the two of them in the same party, they absolutely hold their own.

 

[Flamestrike]

Look at foes like an Archmage (with shield instead off identify prepared because he's not an idiot).

Action surging, sharpshooting, blow all your superiority dice on precise shot just to hit with all 5 x SS attacks vs AC 20 SS/CE BM Fighter 5 deals 5d6+65 or around 73 damage (halved for Stoneskin) to 37 or so.

The monk 5 just waltzes over and slaps the Archmage 4 times with flurry, likely hitting twice, spamming stunning fist on each hit, and all but certainly Stunning the Archmage, and still having 2 Ki points up his sleeve.

He deals less damage than his BM buddy, but I sure as hell know who has contributed more to winning this encounter now.