Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Worth noting that the default definition of not getting the needed DC for ability checks in the PHB can be makes some progress with setback, not just fails to make progress.

So technically from the day one definition, failure doesn't mean any lock remains unpicked if that's not a result th GM chooses.

Absolutely true but they provide comparatively little guidance as to how one would structure partial success. I guess on one hand that "leaves it up to the DM" which is true, but like nearly anything else some structured examples provides a lot of help implementing it in practice.
 

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The solution there is to get rid of most of the buff spells entirely. 3e went overboard with them; as PF is 3e's direct descendant the problem remains.
Most of them existed in 1e and 2e as well. It's not that there were more buffs, it's that characters effectively got more low level spell slots.

In 5e the same solution applies - get rid of a lot of the buff spells and then ask if you still need concentration for anything other than a very few spells where it makes narrative (and maybe balance-ive) sense.
Yes.
Because greater invisibility and fly would still be a thing, as both are fairly important to narratives.
And, again, buffing is also only half of concentration. Because the other aspect is action denial and continual damage spells. Being able to cancel those without a dispel magic is super useful.

Removing them is problematic: most of the buff spells are iconic. They've been in the game since 1st Edition, if not older. It's hard to get rid of stuff like bless.

Plus, playing the "buffer" and a support character is a desired character archetype. Some people just want to enable others and be the helper. Even in 4e where every character was designed to be active in ever round of combat you had people building princess warlords that just sat back and made everyone else better.
(And 4e got rid of traditional "buff" spells and prevented stacking without concentration, and that aspect wasn't exactly universally loved. 5e very deliberately returned to classic buff spells for a reason.)

A side effect of ditching buffs, for those as care about such, would be to make encounter planning easier: you wouldn't have to take into account the buffed-or-not-buffed variable for either the PCs or the foes.
I've accepted that with 5e anyway. Because the solution was less about ditching buffs and more about accepting that "balanced encounters" were never a thing. There's too many variables.
3e/PF/4e liked to pretend they were a thing, and that the game could balance what was a "hard" or "easy" encounter, an "effective level 5 encounter" and such. 5e only kinda-sorta does that, but doesn't bother with that in adventures. There are just encounters.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Having played Pathfinder lately, concentration is a godsend for preventing buff stacking. I had many end game fights where, before rushing in to face a boss, the party would stop and cast buff spells for a solid minute.
And every NPC in Pathfinder tended to have variant statblocks of them without buffs as most had a half-dozen magical effects on them. <...> Plus, knowing that you can knock out someone's concentration and end a negative spell affecting an ally is great and allows for some amazing teamwork. Dropping the evil wizard's concentration has led to some great moments at my table.

As I said previously "I don't mind either in principle, but the execution of both just throws me out of the fiction."

I am 100% with you that Pathfinder, like its 3.5 daddy, is a nightmare of buffs and stacking rules. I totally agree these needed to be knocked back, maybe not as much as Lanefan would like (i.e., to none) but a fair bit. Advantage is a great example of how one can avoid painful stacking rules in a simple way. Temporary Hit Points is another example.

However, WotC doesn't have much of a clear rationale for one spell being concentration versus another much of the time. I often think they just kind of fly by the seats of their pants with the decision. Consider Mirror Image vs. Blur. The spells were different historically because the former was a Magic User spell (for some reason) and the latter was an Illusionist spell back in 1E. The spells are functionally similar---making it harder for the caster to be hit---and probably should just be the same spell. Mirror Image has a fiddly and annoying mechanic and no concentration. Blur has a really clean mechanic (disadvantage on attacks) but requires concentration. My guess is that many people don't take Blur just to avoid concentration even though as DM I'm pretty sure I'd much rather deal with Blur than Mirror Image. I know I go out of my way to avoid spells with it just so I don't have to keep track of it. A way to rewrite the spell to make it clean without concentration might be something like:

Level 2 Blurry Image. Duration 1 minute. This spell induces a shifting, blurry mass where you are standing, making it hard for attackers to hit you. The next three attack rolls against you by any attacker without Truesight or Blindsight are made with disadvantage. Cast at a higher level: For every additional level slot used to cast this spell, add two more attack rolls made with disadvantage.

Then the fact that there's no method for eliminating it, for example by casting with a higher slot. This means there are spells that are essentially "don't bother" because they require Concentration. Web is a very good example of this. At level 3 it's cool but it rapidly becomes useless at higher levels for anyone but perhaps a wizard so it's pretty unlikely a character with a limited pool of spells would take it.



It needs to be a number, so why not three? Three has literary significance and religious significance.

So? Sounds like a Jeremy Crawford ad hoc rationalization. Those significances aren't in the fiction, even remotely.

Three is also just the baseline. If you need more because you're handing out more magic items and want a more monty haul game, then it becomes four or five. If you have a magic-lite setting with that kind of item being rare and special, then perhaps a single attunement slot works.

It is, though systems like D&D Beyond enforce it and disallow any violations of the rules, which is certainly a pain for folks who use it and might want to enact some kind of variation for their dreaded Monty Haul campaign. (I don't know how other online systems work, so I can't comment on them.)

Furthermore, once again like concentration WotC just uses it as a balancer of sorts when they think an item is maybe a bit too potent but without some kind of clear rationale. For example, there are items that one might get at low levels that are, like Web, fairly cool then. They may be interesting and thematic but don't scale and are essentially blocks in the way of a more useful attunement slot. The Ring of Mind Shielding is a good example. I can see why it requires attunement, too but it just seems to present players with a lot of rolling build traps. One thing I noticed over the course of a long campaign (that went to level 20) was that many items simply provoked a "meh, I'm not going to bother" reaction from players because they were stuck with the tradeoffs of which of their old items to eliminate. Much like with buffs, I totally get the reason for a limit of some sort but it would be nice if it scaled somehow.

In sum, disliking the implementation of something is not saying that it serves no purpose. Yes, I could devise something like that myself but working out the bugs of a system like that is why I pay game designers!
 

I am 100% with you that Pathfinder, like its 3.5 daddy, is a nightmare of buffs and stacking rules. I totally agree these needed to be knocked back, maybe not as much as Lanefan would like (i.e., to none) but a fair bit. Advantage is a great example of how one can avoid painful stacking rules in a simple way. Temporary Hit Points is another example.
How would that work with someone lay fly and invisibility? Or stacking something like protection from energy on the entire party?

However, WotC doesn't have much of a clear rationale for one spell being concentration versus another much of the time. I often think they just kind of fly by the seats of their pants with the decision.
Just because you don’t see the rationale doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist.

Then the fact that there's no method for eliminating it, for example by casting with a higher slot. This means there are spells that are essentially "don't bother" because they require Concentration. Web is a very good example of this. At level 3 it's cool but it rapidly becomes useless at higher levels for anyone but perhaps a wizard so it's pretty unlikely a character with a limited pool of spells would take it.
So then they swap it out? I don’t see the problem.

So? Sounds like a Jeremy Crawford ad hoc rationalization. Those significances aren't in the fiction, even remotely.
So what should it have been? Two? Four?

It is, though systems like D&D Beyond enforce it and disallow any violations of the rules, which is certainly a pain for folks who use it and might want to enact some kind of variation for their dreaded Monty Haul campaign. (I don't know how other online systems work, so I can't comment on them.)
*shrug* So “attune” to any item with a mechanical change and just write the extra item on the character sheet.
It’s not particularly hard, even for those people exclusively running their character off of D&D Beyond.

Furthermore, once again like concentration WotC just uses it as a balancer of sorts when they think an item is maybe a bit too potent but without some kind of clear rationale.
It’s mostly pretty logical. Items you can pass between people and the like require attunement, as does any item that might be a “signature” item.

Sure, there’s oddities and quirks. Oh well, no game is perfect. That doesn’t mean the whole attunement system needs to be junked.

One thing I noticed over the course of a long campaign (that went to level 20) was that many items simply provoked a "meh, I'm not going to bother" reaction from players because they were stuck with the tradeoffs of which of their old items to eliminate. Much like with buffs, I totally get the reason for a limit of some sort but it would be nice if it scaled somehow.
So it would be better if they could equip a dozen items? o.0
I’d that’s what you want… then do it. It’s your game.

But, really, I gave out my fair share of magic items in Pathfinder that the party went “meh” about and just instantly sold for gold. Not every item is going to be a winner.

In sum, disliking the implementation of something is not saying that it serves no purpose. Yes, I could devise something like that myself but working out the bugs of a system like that is why I pay game designers!
So then don’t use attunement. Make your own system, write it out, and make money off the DMs Guild.
If you don’t want the pay designers for content you don’t like, then make your own game.

Complaining is easy. Actually making something is hard. If you think you can do better, them prove it.
 

5ekyu

Hero
How would that work with someone lay fly and invisibility? Or stacking something like protection from energy on the entire party?


Just because you don’t see the rationale doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist.


So then they swap it out? I don’t see the problem.


So what should it have been? Two? Four?


*shrug* So “attune” to any item with a mechanical change and just write the extra item on the character sheet.
It’s not particularly hard, even for those people exclusively running their character off of D&D Beyond.


It’s mostly pretty logical. Items you can pass between people and the like require attunement, as does any item that might be a “signature” item.

Sure, there’s oddities and quirks. Oh well, no game is perfect. That doesn’t mean the whole attunement system needs to be junked.


So it would be better if they could equip a dozen items? o.0
I’d that’s what you want… then do it. It’s your game.

But, really, I gave out my fair share of magic items in Pathfinder that the party went “meh” about and just instantly sold for gold. Not every item is going to be a winner.


So then don’t use attunement. Make your own system, write it out, and make money off the DMs Guild.
If you don’t want the pay designers for content you don’t like, then make your own game.

Complaining is easy. Actually making something is hard. If you think you can do better, them prove it.
Actually, as a minor aside, I would use attune limits at con modifier *or* maybe tier or some othe element related to a character aspect or choice. I prefer for significant in world recognizable constants pr constraints to have an established in world basis. The system can balance based on the chosen values constants.

You could have used tier+conmod and set varying attunemdnt values for more potent items and achieved much the same outcome but with more in game based rationalization and characterization. Given a relative uncommon pace of more powerful items, it's not a burden to tie it to features instead of arbitrary values, imo.

Then again, it's also pretty easy to house rule for the same reasons.
 

pemerton

Legend
I believe there were exceptions like the classes in PHB 3 as well as some of the essentials classes.
PHB 3 is not an exception.

Essentials is an exception, by reducing the daily resources of its martial classes. The disparity is still much less than in either classic D&D or 5e, but it is one of (what I regard as) the design weaknesses of Essentials.
 

pemerton

Legend
Most of them existed in 1e and 2e as well.

<snip>

greater invisibility and fly would still be a thing, as both are fairly important to narratives.

<snip>

Removing them is problematic: most of the buff spells are iconic. They've been in the game since 1st Edition, if not older.
In AD&D (not 2nd ed) Fly was a MU spell while Improved Invisiblity was an illusionist spell, and so they were less likely to be used as a combination.

Consider Mirror Image vs. Blur. The spells were different historically because the former was a Magic User spell (for some reason) and the latter was an Illusionist spell back in 1E. The spells are functionally similar---making it harder for the caster to be hit---and probably should just be the same spell.
Good suggestion - or there is the 4e approach, which included both but gave Blur a flat +2 bonus while Mirror Image starts at +6 and steps down on miss.

But for the sake of pedantry: in AD&D illusionists did also get Mirror Image, but with 1d4+1 images rather than - as MUs did - having the number of images rolled on a % die with a level bonus to get 1 image per 25 or part thereof on the result.

banning or neutering Elf Clerics in the greater game wouldn't serve much useful purpose.
Why not? That the gameworld contains no elven clerics (eg because elves live among the spirits of nature, they don't serve the gods that sit outside nature) could be an interesting feature of the implied setting.

When I played AD&D, I found the restriction to NPC-only for some classes (eg dwarven clerics and fighter/clerics) a bit odd, but the prohibition on dwarven wizards never bothered me.
 

Imaro

Legend
PHB 3 is not an exception.

Essentials is an exception, by reducing the daily resources of its martial classes. The disparity is still much less than in either classic D&D or 5e, but it is one of (what I regard as) the design weaknesses of Essentials.

Ah nevermind I'm remembering it wrong PHB 3 just had a different structure for encounter powers... where essentially they were the only classes that could use the same encounter "augment" numerous times in a single encounter.
 
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SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Actually, as a minor aside, I would use attune limits at con modifier *or* maybe tier or some othe element related to a character aspect or choice. I prefer for significant in world recognizable constants pr constraints to have an established in world basis. The system can balance based on the chosen values constants.

You could have used tier+conmod and set varying attunemdnt values for more potent items and achieved much the same outcome but with more in game based rationalization and characterization. Given a relative uncommon pace of more powerful items, it's not a burden to tie it to features instead of arbitrary values, imo.

Then again, it's also pretty easy to house rule for the same reasons.

I like attunement slots = proficiency bonus.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Most of them existed in 1e and 2e as well. It's not that there were more buffs, it's that characters effectively got more low level spell slots.
Looking at some of your examples, some of what you call "buffs" I've never really seen as such e.g. Fly and Invisibility - to me those are simple utility spells. What I call buffs are those that boost your numbers: stats (Strength, Cat's Grace, etc.) and-or hit points (Aid) or to-hit/damage (Bless, Prayer, etc.).

Not sure about 2e but in 1e the only stat-booster was Strength. Bless, Prayer, etc. are easy to control just by saying they do not stack; and if opposed (i.e. if the opponents cast one too and the AoE's overlap at all) they just wash out and cancel each other. Aid is relatively trivial in what it gives, to the point I rarely if ever see it cast.

The ones in 1e that can become problematic IME are the varions Protection From xxxx effects.

Yes.
Because greater invisibility and fly would still be a thing, as both are fairly important to narratives.
Improved Invisibility in my games comes up so rarely I don't have to worry about it - it's Illusionist only and for some reason nobody plays Illusionists. Fly is just a constant, and not even the spell: if any device that gives flight ever crosses the party's transom it's a sure bet someone will snap it up and never let it go.

And, again, buffing is also only half of concentration. Because the other aspect is action denial and continual damage spells. Being able to cancel those without a dispel magic is super useful.
Personally I prefer fire-and-forget continual damage spells, and that they can't be shut off early. :)

Removing them is problematic: most of the buff spells are iconic. They've been in the game since 1st Edition, if not older. It's hard to get rid of stuff like bless.
Bless rarely if ever gets cast in my games due to a restriction I put on it ages ago: it only affects you if you're not already in combat.

Hester David said:
So it would be better if they could equip a dozen items? o.0
Sure, why not? But in my game if you fail a save vs. most AoE damage all those items are at significant risk - you pays yer money and you takes yer chances. :)

But, really, I gave out my fair share of magic items in Pathfinder that the party went “meh” about and just instantly sold for gold. Not every item is going to be a winner.
Obviously. But those they can use, let 'em use. And those that are only going ot be used once in a blue moon but at that time can be a game-saver - let 'em use those too. :)

Attunement or something similar is fine for a very few specific items, particularly items that don't need to be in your possession to function e.g. Book of Infinite Spells. But for most things it's just a layer of bureaucracy that IMO would add little if anything to the game.

Lanefan
 

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