Mearls, please give the mind flayer a makeover!

[Felon]

Sorry to mini-hijack but was the Beholder makeover ever shown anywhere?

I don't think we've had that many makeovers. Rust monster and ogre mage are about it.

 

[BryonD]

I will clarify that the issue isn't with bad things happening to a player here and there and them being negative about it (or being a good sport), it's more of a combination of bad things happening in a huge cone that can effectively sideline the majority of the players, as well as the flayer's own allies, combined with the lack of any other equally good tricks in the illithid's bag.

Personally, I'd the very least advocate a design change that allows a save every round, which would still make for a nasty attack but would present the players with an opportunity to return from spectator to participant.

I don't have a problem with the area.

And the lack of "equally good tricks" is completely resolved by the XPH.

 

[BryonD]

I don't think we've had that many makeovers. Rust monster and ogre mage are about it.

They did a beholder makeover at Gen Con.
No sign of it so far.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Not sure I agree.
They are certainly more potent than the MM version. But the MM version seems a little weak for its CR if anything.

I wouldn't argue a CR of 9, but 8 seems close enough.

The MM one seems more like a 7 (ish).

I'd say that if a 9th-level NPC psion is CR 9, then a mind flayer had darn well better be CR 10 or higher.

-Superior manifesting stat
-PR 25
-Decent melee ability
-Mind blast

Those are worth +1 CR over the human psion, methinks.

 

[Gez]

-Superior manifesting stat
-PR 25
-Decent melee ability
-Mind blast
-A much smaller quantity of magic/psionic items

Those are worth -1 CR over the human psion, methinks.

Fixed it for you and rule accuracy...

 

[Matafuego]

Yeahp, the magic items really do make a lot of difference at those levels.
A naked 9th level psion isn't at all a CR 9 thingy, I don't even think a level 9 psion is a CR 9 but let's keep believing that for a while

 

[ruleslawyer]

Fixed it for you and rule accuracy...

Beg pardon?

A mind flayer has double standard treasure, Gez. That's 11,600 gp worth of stuff at CR/EL 10. A 9th-level psion NPC has 12,000 gp worth of stuff. Explain how 400 gp worth of equipment compensates in any way for PR/SR 25, mind blast, and better stats. Heck, the NPC has to spend 4000 gp and both level increases just to get his Int up to 19, assuming he used standard-array scores. Even if the NPC is allowed to optimize the heck out of his equipment and the mind flayer gets zero useful treasure (which should NEVER happen), the NPC can afford only 8000 gp worth of magic/psionic items after getting level with the mind flayer on manifesting ability alone. 8000 gp cannot buy the NPC decent melee capability, or an ability equivalent to mind blast, or even a single stat equal to the mind flayer's other stats. It cannot buy him mind flayer-equivalent natural armor, an extract ability, or hit points equal to the flayer's. So how exactly does treasure swing the odds in favor of the NPC?

 

[ThirdWizard]

In case of Mind Blast, prep Spell Immunity.

 

[BryonD]

I'd say that if a 9th-level NPC psion is CR 9, then a mind flayer had darn well better be CR 10 or higher.

-Superior manifesting stat
-PR 25
-Decent melee ability
-Mind blast

Those are worth +1 CR over the human psion, methinks.

I don't find them to be worth CR 10 in practice. It is just that simple.


I agree with your points other than decent melee ability. It isn't that good for the level and it has a significant opportunity cost if they melee rather than doing something else.
I also think that the default flayer has a moderately suboptimal selection of powers. They are not awful, and there are some nice ones to play with. But it isn't supreme power either. I have a Psyk version instead of telepath and with that one change and a thought out power selection I would certainly agree that this one is CR10.

But many observations of the straight XPH flayer makes me say CR9.

All of the above with a giant caveat that I don't get hung up on the precision of CR. At the end of the day you are giving a few more xp for it. I won't call that "wrong" in any way and I certainly don't think the fun has changed.

 

[BryonD]

Beg pardon?

A mind flayer has double standard treasure, Gez. That's 11,600 gp worth of stuff at CR/EL 10.

Just to be picky.....

You are trying to show that a Mind Flayer treaures justifies being better than CR9. So you can't use CR10 treasure to show that.
You should compare CR/EL9 treasure to a level 9 npc. A CR9 mind flayer should have 9,000 in gear, which is 25% less than the 12,000 the npc psion has.

I don't claim that cancels out the other stuff. But, like I said, just being picky.