Mearls, please give the mind flayer a makeover!

[ruleslawyer]

I'd disagree with that, actually. If I'm trying to show that a mindflayer warrants CR 10, then I should use CR 10 treasure values. If I use CR 9 treasure values to attempt to justify CR 10, I'm not doing the creature justice. Conversely, if I use CR 9 treasure values to show that the thing is NOT a mere CR 9, then I'm stuck in a bit of a logical conundrum, since if it's not CR 9, it won't have CR 9 treasure. And so on...

 

[Nightfall]

*still likes his idea for make over of En World and a Scarred Lands HC for his own personal use* But that's just me.

 

[BryonD]

I'd disagree with that, actually. If I'm trying to show that a mindflayer warrants CR 10, then I should use CR 10 treasure values. If I use CR 9 treasure values to attempt to justify CR 10, I'm not doing the creature justice. Conversely, if I use CR 9 treasure values to show that the thing is NOT a mere CR 9, then I'm stuck in a bit of a logical conundrum, since if it's not CR 9, it won't have CR 9 treasure. And so on...

Bad logic.

You can not possibly say that it is overpowered at CR9 by giving it CR10 gear.
If you go ahead and give it EL10 treasure then it is not a CR9 creature anymore.

To show that a CR9 creature is more powerful than it should be you must set it up completely as a CR9 creature. Thus you must use CR9 treasure. Then show it is to powerful as is.

Once you make the point and bump it up to CR10 then it gets more treasure and becomes slightly more powerful, but that has no bearing on whether or not it was balanced at CR9 with EL9 treasure.


It is the same as saying that a 9th level psion is to powerful by giving him level 10 gear. Of course if you give him more gear than he is supposed to get he is more powerful than he is supposed to be. The question is, is he to powerful with the amount of gear he is supposed to have.

 

[ruleslawyer]

How is it bad logic to say that something makes an appropriate CR 10 with CR 10 treasure?

We can argue about this all day, but I think it's perfectly good logic. If something is balanced at CR 10 with CR 10 treasure, then it's balanced at CR 10. If it's balanced at CR 10 with CR 9 treasure, then it might be balanced... or it might be overpowered.

 

[BryonD]

How is it bad logic to say that something makes an appropriate CR 10 with CR 10 treasure?

You are missing the whole point.

You are saying that it is to powerful to be CR9, you can't use CR10 gear to say that.

If I gave an orc fighter 1 EL5 gear it would be much more than CR1.
But to claim that this meant an orc fighter 1 was greater than CR1 would be bad logic.

I said it was CR9 and you said I was wrong. If you are going to prove me wrong at CR9 then you may not start out by giving it to much gear.

 

[ruleslawyer]

No, I *am* getting the point.

To wit: A mind flayer with CR 9 gear is IMHO overpowered for a CR 9 creature. A mind flayer with CR 10 treasure is an appropriate CR 10 encounter in my book.

That clearer?

 

[BryonD]

No, I *am* getting the point.

To wit: A mind flayer with CR 9 gear is IMHO overpowered for a CR 9 creature. A mind flayer with CR 10 treasure is an appropriate CR 10 encounter in my book.

That clearer?

No, you are no longer even speaking to the point YOU first made.

Nobody has at any point challenged that a mind flayer with CR10 gear is a reasonable CR10. Defending that point shows that you have lost track of the discussion.

YOU were comparing the mind flayer to the npc psion 9.
You were listing things that a mind flayer has which are advantages against a CR9 opponent.

You point was that showing the advantages the mind flayer has over a CR9 psion shows that a mind flayer is CR10.

One of the points you made was that a mind flayer has the same gear as the psion.
But at CR9 a mind flayer at CR9 has 75% of the gear as a psion9.
This is a disadvantage.

You gave it to much gear and called it a wash.
That was wrong.

I'll accept your postion that the OTHER items make it ok to say CR10. I already agreed to that. But you have to establish it is to powerful at CR9 BEFORE you bump it to CR10. And you have to bump it to CR10 BEFORE you can assign it CR10 gear. If you give it the CR10 gear BEFORE you make the case that it deserves to be CR10 then you have made a logical error.

Just the same as giving an orc fighter 1 to much gear would not logically establish that the orc fighter 1 is a higher CR.
I might say that an orc fighter 1 with EL5 gear is a good CR2 or CR3 monster. Even if I'm right, that does not impact the correct CR of a basic orc fighter 1.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Give it some minions...

The mind flayer is not the sort of monster that works as solo threat / mono threat. If the players can make the will saves, or otherwise avoid the mind blast problem than they just wont stand up all that well.

Since the primary ability is one that stuns players, take advantage of that with some top rung cannon fodder. Most dangerous would be a couple of Rogue thralls to smash away at the stunned opponents for sneak attack damage.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[ruleslawyer]

No, you are no longer even speaking to the point YOU first made.

SNIP

Yeah, okay, I'm done with this.

 

[Glyfair]

As a sidenote, the latest Design and Development article has a poll about the creature you'd like to see in the next Monster Makeover column. Yes, the Mind Flayer is one of them.