Melee Ranger At-Wills?

My personal thought is to make it just like the rogue's at-will, Dex vs Ref, 1[W] damage...

Simple and straight to the point...

Course, could make a ranger at will that is called Power shot:

DEX or STR vs Fort Melee/Ranged
1[W] + Dex + Str damage

Would be just like the sly flourish for rogues, but with Ranger Flavor =)
 

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My personal preference is "+2 hit and include Str bonus". i.e. it is like a basic attack with an extra +2 to hit.

Cheers
No good. Twin Strike and Careful Attack compete in the same space: expected damage. Both gain a bonus to hit and deal damage as their effect. In order to differentiate itself, Careful Attack must have a secondary effect, like Kordeth's suggestion in an earlier post.
 


Have you considered going Beastmaster instead? Then you could get one of the beast at-will attacks.

Sure, that'd also mean losing the ability to wield two longswords or bastard swords or what have you and toughness... but, it's an option.
 

Have you considered going Beastmaster instead? Then you could get one of the beast at-will attacks.

Sure, that'd also mean losing the ability to wield two longswords or bastard swords or what have you and toughness... but, it's an option.
Dual wielding waraxes actually... I have considered it, but I don't want to give up the non-offhand offhand and the awesome Toughness feat. Plus, I'm not thematically interested in the pet.

Not having a useful 3rd at-will isn't that big a deal, as I use Twin Strike mostly anyway, but it seems odd that WotC hasn't published another 2-weapon-focused at-will power for rangers. Do they not want to acknowledge the 'oops' that is Careful Attack? Who knows...
 
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The problem with saying "who cares, Twin Strike is too good so it doesn't matter if there's no other functional melee at-will" is that "you can only do one thing every round but it's okay because you do so much damage with it" is awfully reminiscent of the 3E fighter.

Look how much damage your full attack does! Why would you want to do something else?
 

No good. Twin Strike and Careful Attack compete in the same space: expected damage. Both gain a bonus to hit and deal damage as their effect. In order to differentiate itself, Careful Attack must have a secondary effect, like Kordeth's suggestion in an earlier post.

I disagree - on a roll by roll basis they will have a different chance of hitting (especially against high defences) and will do different damage (depending upon the variation between primary stat and average weapon damage).

Of the entire course of an adventuring career it could be argued that mathematically they compete in the same space, but that is irrelevant because what actually matters is whether it gives players a valid choice to make about which to use in different circumstances. And it does.

(if you are concerned about powers getting in each others face in the same space then 4e must be a bit of a nightmare, with all kinds of powers doing almost exactly the same thing but with a tiny differentiation in area or duration or some such!)

Cheers
 

Of the entire course of an adventuring career it could be argued that mathematically they compete in the same space, but that is irrelevant because what actually matters is whether it gives players a valid choice to make about which to use in different circumstances. And it does.

Well, no, not really. The aggregate differences between the two certainly add up over time, but even on a single die roll, Twin Strike is significantly better.

Rolling twice is, statistically, about the equivalent to getting a +4 bonus on an attack roll (there's some more wonky math in there, but that will do for a simplification). A single hit with one Twin Strike attack will do the exact same amount of damage as a hit with Careful Attack. Effectively, you're choosing between a +2 to hit and a +4 to hit and a decent chance of doubling your damage output.

Consider: You attack a monster. You'll hit the monster on a roll of 11 or better if you make an unmodified attack, and you're using a bastard sword.

- Careful Attack drops your hit requirement to 9--you now have a 60% chance to inflict 1d10 damage.

- Twin Strike lets you roll twice. That means that, with a hit requirement of 11, you have a 75% chance to inflict 1d10 points of damage, and a 25% chance to inflict 2d10 damage. When you start adding feat and enhancement bonuses, that double damage gets even better.

As written, there is literally no circumstance in which it is, from a mathematical perspective, better to use Careful Attack than Twin Strike.

(if you are concerned about powers getting in each others face in the same space then 4e must be a bit of a nightmare, with all kinds of powers doing almost exactly the same thing but with a tiny differentiation in area or duration or some such!)

Cheers

There are very few powers in 4E that directly compete the way Twin Strike and Careful Attack compete. Either similar powers are on different class lists, they're different levels, or their additional effects are different enough that using them becomes a tactical choice.
 

There are very few powers in 4E that directly compete the way Twin Strike and Careful Attack compete. Either similar powers are on different class lists, they're different levels, or their additional effects are different enough that using them becomes a tactical choice.
You took the words right out of my mouth.

To be fair, there is one variation between Twin Strike and Careful Attack: Twin Strike can split its attacks between two opponents. So technically, you could tweak the attack bonus and damage output of Careful Attack until its expected damage is greater than that of Twin Strike. Then you have a real tactical choice to make: more damage vs. ability to hit two opponents. The problem with this is that Twin Strike's expected damage is so high that bumping Careful Attack above it would make it uber. Alternatively, you could try lowering the expected damage of Twin Strike, say by applying a penalty to attack, or combining a decrease in Twin Strike damage output with a boost to Careful Attack. Ultimately, I think it's simpler to give Careful Attack a different tactical variation though, like the aforementioned defense boost (+2 AC, or +1 all, for example, until your next start-of-turn).
 

LOL

See the link in post #10 to see why that change to Careful Attack doesn't work.
You pose a question, but any person attempting to answer you is wrong. You're just going to have to work with your DM on a solution that's suitable to you - I try to keep abreast of all the cool stuff in sourcebooks, and before I even get to page 2, other commenters have already suggested every option that I know of for your situation. You could always ask your DM to just make it like the rogue's precise strike, targeting Reflex.
 

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