Melee Smackdown - Who kicks more butt, PsyWar or Ftr? Prove it!
- Thread starter ForceUser
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The Souljourner
First Post
You want me to prove that fighters suck after 12th level? Ok... let's look at your bog standard Greatsword wielding 12th level human fighter:
Feats: 1,1,1,2,3,4,6,6,8,9,10,12 = 12 feats
(in order)
Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Power Attack
Cleave
Combat Reflexes (or some other random feat)
Iron Will
Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Combat Expertise (or some other random feat)
Improved Disarm (or some other random feat)
Greater Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Improved Critical: Greatsword
(some other random feat)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Here's the problem... we're at 12th level and we're already into "some other random feat" land.
Sure, you can put some useful-type stuff in there... but after 12th, there's nothing bigger or better. You get more feats that you didn't bother taking at earlier levels.
Let's translate this into something a little more obvious. Let's say we designed the Sorcerer the way fighters are designed. At level 12 you get access to 6th level spells. Cool, right? Now as you go up in level.... there are no higher level spells. In fact, after the sixth level spell you chose at 12th, you now only get more spells of level 4 or less. 14th level? More 4th level spells! 16th level? More 4th level spells! 18th level? More 4th level spells! Whoopeteefrickin'doo.
In order for a fighter to be competitive at levels higher than 12th, he would have to be *significantly* more powerful at 12th, since he doesn't gain any power beyond what everyone gets - hitpoints and BAB.
I don't have time to write out exactly what this guy could do for damage, but the mere fact that he doesn't get significantly better past 12th level indicates a problem.
-The Souljourner
Feats: 1,1,1,2,3,4,6,6,8,9,10,12 = 12 feats
(in order)
Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Power Attack
Cleave
Combat Reflexes (or some other random feat)
Iron Will
Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Combat Expertise (or some other random feat)
Improved Disarm (or some other random feat)
Greater Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Improved Critical: Greatsword
(some other random feat)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Here's the problem... we're at 12th level and we're already into "some other random feat" land.
Sure, you can put some useful-type stuff in there... but after 12th, there's nothing bigger or better. You get more feats that you didn't bother taking at earlier levels.
Let's translate this into something a little more obvious. Let's say we designed the Sorcerer the way fighters are designed. At level 12 you get access to 6th level spells. Cool, right? Now as you go up in level.... there are no higher level spells. In fact, after the sixth level spell you chose at 12th, you now only get more spells of level 4 or less. 14th level? More 4th level spells! 16th level? More 4th level spells! 18th level? More 4th level spells! Whoopeteefrickin'doo.
In order for a fighter to be competitive at levels higher than 12th, he would have to be *significantly* more powerful at 12th, since he doesn't gain any power beyond what everyone gets - hitpoints and BAB.
I don't have time to write out exactly what this guy could do for damage, but the mere fact that he doesn't get significantly better past 12th level indicates a problem.
-The Souljourner
two
First Post
It's true.
Fighters need high-level exclusive feats, and bad. Feats that are the equal, say, of 5th level spells or higher, useable x/times a day if required to limit them somewhat.
Some obvious ideas are:
1) Maximum damage, 3x day.
2) Autohit, 3x day (but no chance of a critical).
3) Extra 5' step during full attacks (so attack, 5' step, attack, 5' is legal). Or can go 5' 5' attack.
4) Re-roll once a day
5) Armor Expertise (ups base AC bonus of heavy armor by 3, medium by 2, light by 1).
Etc.
Feats that the other classes will look at with some envy, and add some "wow, he can DO that?" to those currently non-existent Fighter18 builds.
Fighters need high-level exclusive feats, and bad. Feats that are the equal, say, of 5th level spells or higher, useable x/times a day if required to limit them somewhat.
Some obvious ideas are:
1) Maximum damage, 3x day.
2) Autohit, 3x day (but no chance of a critical).
3) Extra 5' step during full attacks (so attack, 5' step, attack, 5' is legal). Or can go 5' 5' attack.
4) Re-roll once a day
5) Armor Expertise (ups base AC bonus of heavy armor by 3, medium by 2, light by 1).
Etc.
Feats that the other classes will look at with some envy, and add some "wow, he can DO that?" to those currently non-existent Fighter18 builds.
at 20th level there is 0.0000000001% that any fighting class will win over a casting class.
but the psiwar is only a half-casting class (and i don't like psiwars) so i say (and want) the fighter wins.
at low level, it's the fighting classes that do all the hard work (and the easy work too) because the casting classes are near-powerless.
at 8-12 they are about the same power and from then on it's "do what the wizard says or roll realy high on your next save"
i played in both low level and high level games, always as a spellcasting class. at low level i had not a single chance to survive on my own without the fighter and the healing potion at my side.
at high level all the other players do what i say or roll up a new char
![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
(nah... i'm not that evil)
but the psiwar is only a half-casting class (and i don't like psiwars) so i say (and want) the fighter wins.
at low level, it's the fighting classes that do all the hard work (and the easy work too) because the casting classes are near-powerless.
at 8-12 they are about the same power and from then on it's "do what the wizard says or roll realy high on your next save"
i played in both low level and high level games, always as a spellcasting class. at low level i had not a single chance to survive on my own without the fighter and the healing potion at my side.
at high level all the other players do what i say or roll up a new char
(nah... i'm not that evil)
Victim
First Post
Well, since we're including the Complete Warrior, the fighter has some better picks.
For a non-human Fighter, we can go with the following up through level 12:
1 Weapon Focus
1 Power Attack
2 Cleave
3 Iron Will
4 Weapon Specialization
6 Improved Bullrush
6 Shock Trooper
8 Improved Critical
9 Greater Weapon Focus
10 Close Quarters Fighting
12 Greater Weapon Specialization
12 Improved Toughness
Even at higher levels, the fighter still has good options.
For cheese balls, going TWF with Armor Spikes will use 3+ feats.
For further increases in brutality, Imp Sunder and the Combat Brute feat are a big help. Sundering can grant a huge advantage against weapon using foes, especially if the character mainly uses an admantine weapon. Combat Brute allows for more effective power attacks after a charge, which works well with the nasty Charges from Shock Trooper.
In a group with weaker healing and greater than average mobility, a fighter might want to use lighter than normal armor, and develop the Spring Attack chain. Images of swashbuckling action to the contrary, greatswords are better with Spring Attack than rapiers. Granted, Spring Attack isn't the best choice for dueling with psi-wars, given Hustle or Psionic Lion's Charge.
If the fighter has sufficient intellect (at higher levels, item boosting makes Expertise more readily available even to stupid fighters), he can go Expertise+Combat Reflexes+Karmic Strike. Karmic Strike is nasty, but it can play well with both Shock Trooper (reduced AC -> more use of KS) and Spring Attack (take 2 attacks for every one of theirs, assuming they hit with their best attack). If the fighter goes down this route, Leadership is also a good choice. A PC cleric might get upset that you get hit and use up his spells on purpose.
Improved Initiative isn't bad, especially since you want to charge so you can use Shock Trooper.
Also, we're talking about a fighter using one of the least feat intensive fighting styles. Give the fighter a spiked chain and see when you run short on feats. Then the fighter could use Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon, Stand Still, Expertise and Imp. Trip in addition to all the feats applicable to a 2 handed fighter. Similarly, two weapon style needs a number of additional feats.
Finally, if the fighter has a bunch of extra feats, he can take Wild Talent and then chop through monsters with Deep Impact as well. He can also Power Attack for more when using it.
For a non-human Fighter, we can go with the following up through level 12:
1 Weapon Focus
1 Power Attack
2 Cleave
3 Iron Will
4 Weapon Specialization
6 Improved Bullrush
6 Shock Trooper
8 Improved Critical
9 Greater Weapon Focus
10 Close Quarters Fighting
12 Greater Weapon Specialization
12 Improved Toughness
Even at higher levels, the fighter still has good options.
For cheese balls, going TWF with Armor Spikes will use 3+ feats.
For further increases in brutality, Imp Sunder and the Combat Brute feat are a big help. Sundering can grant a huge advantage against weapon using foes, especially if the character mainly uses an admantine weapon. Combat Brute allows for more effective power attacks after a charge, which works well with the nasty Charges from Shock Trooper.
In a group with weaker healing and greater than average mobility, a fighter might want to use lighter than normal armor, and develop the Spring Attack chain. Images of swashbuckling action to the contrary, greatswords are better with Spring Attack than rapiers. Granted, Spring Attack isn't the best choice for dueling with psi-wars, given Hustle or Psionic Lion's Charge.
If the fighter has sufficient intellect (at higher levels, item boosting makes Expertise more readily available even to stupid fighters), he can go Expertise+Combat Reflexes+Karmic Strike. Karmic Strike is nasty, but it can play well with both Shock Trooper (reduced AC -> more use of KS) and Spring Attack (take 2 attacks for every one of theirs, assuming they hit with their best attack). If the fighter goes down this route, Leadership is also a good choice. A PC cleric might get upset that you get hit and use up his spells on purpose.
Improved Initiative isn't bad, especially since you want to charge so you can use Shock Trooper.
Also, we're talking about a fighter using one of the least feat intensive fighting styles. Give the fighter a spiked chain and see when you run short on feats. Then the fighter could use Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon, Stand Still, Expertise and Imp. Trip in addition to all the feats applicable to a 2 handed fighter. Similarly, two weapon style needs a number of additional feats.
Finally, if the fighter has a bunch of extra feats, he can take Wild Talent and then chop through monsters with Deep Impact as well. He can also Power Attack for more when using it.
Ok, here is a quick run down. Any levels below 20 and this guy seriously loses power rapidly.. but hey, the rules said level 20 
I did this pretty fast, so I may have messed up on money, hopefully not though. I took a couple of liberties but I think that they are deserved.
Anyway, this does not shout at psychic warrior being overpowered, he still has some problems, but I went for maximum flexibility under whatever conditions might arise in a random universe.
----
Psychic warrior 20
HD 20d8+20*con = 133.5
BAB +15
F +12 R +6 W +6 = F +21 R +15 W +21
Bonus feats 8 = Talented, Overchannel, psicrystal affinity, psicrystal containment, psionic talent x4
Feats 7 = psionic talent x 7
Bonus feat 1 = extend power
Skills: (69) Autohypnosis 18, Concentration 23, knowledge (psionics) 10, Search 18
PP = 127 (base) + 65 (feats) + 80 (stat) = 272
Powers
1st = 3 Inertial armor, Expansion, Synesthete, (6) metaphysical weapon
2nd = 3 Psionic lions charge, Strength of my enemy, Body adjustment
3rd = 3 Evade burst, Empathic transfer hostile, empathic feedback
4th = 3 Inertial barrier, Steadfast perception, Freedom of movement, (5) Dim Door, (6) energy adaption
5th = 3 Adapt body, Psychofeedback
6th = 5 Dispelling buffer, Form of Doom, Mindblank (personal)
Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
+2 str, +2 wis, +1 dex
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
+ items
Str 26, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 8
Items: Girdle of giant str +6, headband of wisdom +6, +4 wisdom book, +4 str book, orange ioun stone, Standard of heroism, torc of power preservation, cloak of resistance +5
Adamantine chain shirt +1, gleaming, landing, linked, phasing, glamored, heartening, vanishing.
Adamantine shield +1, animated, heartening, heavy fortification.
adamantine two handed sword +1, suppression, wounding, lucky.
Beginning of the day this guy manifests an overchanneled inertial armor (24) +16, overchanneled metaphysical weapon (24) +7, mind blank (10), overchanneled dispelling buffer (10), overchanneled extended synesthete (2), overchanneled extended empathic feedback (24), overchanneled extended steadfast perception (8), overchanneled extended freedom of movement (8), overchanneled extended energy adaption (8), extended adapt body (10)
Then body adjustment to fix the damage. (20d8 = avg 90, needs about 14d12 to fix, 28pp needed)
Total pp spent = 156. Remainder for the day = 116
To refresh the powers that only last 8 hours requires 50 pp. So all powers could be up 24 hours a day, with a little help from the party cleric or picking up vigor instead of some other power.
Actually looks like a pretty fun character. Chances of a dispel working is not terribly likely with dispelling screen up. Average damage per round is pretty good, not as good as it could be, but good enough.
If you want to keep up everything 24 hours a day, and have a cleric in the party who doesnt mind dropping a few low level spells on you to heal you up, then he buffs up in the morning and pulling out the pp for the other 2 refreshes then he has 44 pp to play with for various abilities. It can be min/maxed farther, but this is a good start.
I did this pretty fast, so I may have messed up on money, hopefully not though. I took a couple of liberties but I think that they are deserved.
Anyway, this does not shout at psychic warrior being overpowered, he still has some problems, but I went for maximum flexibility under whatever conditions might arise in a random universe.
----
Psychic warrior 20
HD 20d8+20*con = 133.5
BAB +15
F +12 R +6 W +6 = F +21 R +15 W +21
Bonus feats 8 = Talented, Overchannel, psicrystal affinity, psicrystal containment, psionic talent x4
Feats 7 = psionic talent x 7
Bonus feat 1 = extend power
Skills: (69) Autohypnosis 18, Concentration 23, knowledge (psionics) 10, Search 18
PP = 127 (base) + 65 (feats) + 80 (stat) = 272
Powers
1st = 3 Inertial armor, Expansion, Synesthete, (6) metaphysical weapon
2nd = 3 Psionic lions charge, Strength of my enemy, Body adjustment
3rd = 3 Evade burst, Empathic transfer hostile, empathic feedback
4th = 3 Inertial barrier, Steadfast perception, Freedom of movement, (5) Dim Door, (6) energy adaption
5th = 3 Adapt body, Psychofeedback
6th = 5 Dispelling buffer, Form of Doom, Mindblank (personal)
Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
+2 str, +2 wis, +1 dex
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
+ items
Str 26, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 8
Items: Girdle of giant str +6, headband of wisdom +6, +4 wisdom book, +4 str book, orange ioun stone, Standard of heroism, torc of power preservation, cloak of resistance +5
Adamantine chain shirt +1, gleaming, landing, linked, phasing, glamored, heartening, vanishing.
Adamantine shield +1, animated, heartening, heavy fortification.
adamantine two handed sword +1, suppression, wounding, lucky.
Beginning of the day this guy manifests an overchanneled inertial armor (24) +16, overchanneled metaphysical weapon (24) +7, mind blank (10), overchanneled dispelling buffer (10), overchanneled extended synesthete (2), overchanneled extended empathic feedback (24), overchanneled extended steadfast perception (8), overchanneled extended freedom of movement (8), overchanneled extended energy adaption (8), extended adapt body (10)
Then body adjustment to fix the damage. (20d8 = avg 90, needs about 14d12 to fix, 28pp needed)
Total pp spent = 156. Remainder for the day = 116
To refresh the powers that only last 8 hours requires 50 pp. So all powers could be up 24 hours a day, with a little help from the party cleric or picking up vigor instead of some other power.
Actually looks like a pretty fun character. Chances of a dispel working is not terribly likely with dispelling screen up. Average damage per round is pretty good, not as good as it could be, but good enough.
If you want to keep up everything 24 hours a day, and have a cleric in the party who doesnt mind dropping a few low level spells on you to heal you up, then he buffs up in the morning and pulling out the pp for the other 2 refreshes then he has 44 pp to play with for various abilities. It can be min/maxed farther, but this is a good start.
Last edited:
Thanee
First Post
ForceUser said:
But it is an unfair advantage for the fighter to only compare combat abilities, since the psychic warrior is clearly highly superior in non-combat situations.
As for fighters being unable to comete, prove it. Put your numbers where your opinion is.
Nah, it's completely obvious, that a fighter cannot compare at that level.
20 powers versus 3 extra bonus feats, +5 BAB (+1 attack), and +20 hit points? Not hard to see that with the powers the psychic warrior wins hands down. Just look up some random powers and see what they do at 20th level.
Bye
Thanee
Last edited:
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